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Arbers and bookies

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Author Topic: Arbers and bookies  (Read 1882 times)
alimma
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« on: August 14, 2016, 04:56:29 PM »

Hello,

First i hope Arbuser understand my point and dont shut dont my account. i am writing this we little anger not for myself but for the future and new ones. i have quite learnt alot of experience in this business.

i have read alot of forums and it is really sad the stories that comes from there, be it true or false or shaddy but it is just pitiable that sure coudl happen.

We can read of a case where one bets 8000 euro on an international match and after his bet was a winner of 18700 euro, the bookie refused to give his winning and claim he has to provide his source of income before Arbing, what kind og rubbish is this, WHAT IF HE LOST, by the way what does the source of income has to do with his winning even if he is a thief.

We can read stories of a bookie refusing to pay out 17000 euros to the player and shut his account even after paying out some money, and the reasson becomes that HIS ACCOUNT IS UNDER INVESTIGATION, for heavens sake, it wasnt when you paid out 2500 but it is when you wont pay out 17000.

you can read about my case with Unibet, that is almot 3 months now and will be forgotten like a lot other ones.

or about that with pinnacle and they replied after 17 emails, WE UNDERSTAND YOUR OPINION AND YOU ARE RIGHT BUT ACCORDING TO OUR TERMS, ALL BETS ON THE EVENT WAS VOIDED.

Bet365 twice has done the same and on one annoying case, i placed a bet of 1000 euros on 2.30 odds and after 2 hours of ended game, i got 1850 and the agents said, we are sorry, the odds at the time of inplay was wrong, the real odd was 1.85 despite the fact that i placed bet at the DRAW hand to win at 13.00. Then my question to them on my lossing Draw was , what was the correct odd, and what would it be if i lost at 2.30.

my point on all this examples is that there is no where safe on the arbing, one day it might be me and another it might be you and you stop when all you money is taken away by the crooks aand no body is doing anything about it. I have written to every gambling commission online and at worst, they will just degrade the bookie and that is finished and the crime goes on.

I cannot talk about can bet, still going on now right, that is finished.

For some, it dont hurt because when we gain 1000 and lost 500, we are still in gain and we dont argue, but be patient and like the odd of 1.05 and 95, you will have all you bankroll taken away to them.

i am not good at organising people but some persons are and have the resources. This bookies are coming up everyday with rules that protect them and help them to still from the people they promise to give entertainment and nobody is asking a thing or doing anything. There are good website out there that try to help, but the true remain that they run on resources and when it is done, they stop and the bookies who have more continue.

MY OPINION IS SIMPLE, i have made a little research and found out that we have at least 3000 Arbers maybe around the world. This is far more bigger than bet365 because if all put togather, then we can fight. If a union or website is made and each member has to pay a monthly payment of 300 pounds which i my opinion is nothing compared to the what will be gained or what we lose, then that totals about 90000 or more every month. I believe this is enough to hire good lawyer who can take bookies to court on cases that are too difficult to settle or are to big to make profit from.

everyday there are cases with bookies from 500 pounds to 20000 pounds withheld between them and the commission can get or not but the HOUSE ALWAYS WINS, but we can be a house also and get some reputation for ourselves. It is true we dont use our identification all the time but there is no rule that prevents arbing or making using my moms id as a crime.

You might pass by my opinion today but in the next 3 years, Arbing will be done not because of the limitation or because we cannot find arbs, but because the resources for the arbers are all locked up in the bookies.
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Thordin
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« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2016, 05:05:17 PM »

Would you really want williamhill's, bet365's etc lawyers snooping in on your accounts, e-wallets, transactions and financial stuff?
Would your friends want that?
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ilovethisforum
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« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2016, 05:18:06 PM »

alimma you are totally right,but i would agree with Thordin also.The only thing that we can do together,i believe, is to force all bookies(by law) to accept all players,or at least limit good players with a reasonable amount of let's say 1000 euro max payout,something like that.This is my opinion.
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alimma
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« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2016, 05:28:42 PM »

Would you really want williamhill's, bet365's etc lawyers snooping in on your accounts, e-wallets, transactions and financial stuff?
Would your friends want that?


I wont want that but clearly every company has it background secret and the lawyers are far aware of it and protect the image of the client will fighting for the course.

Even murderers caught in the act has lawyers who fight there way out of it
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MaxShalamar
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« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2016, 05:53:40 PM »

TBH every business has a right to set their prices (or limits) and sell to whoever they want to - bookies are no different

I doubt that will ever change
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alimma
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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2016, 06:01:34 PM »

TBH every business has a right to set their prices (or limits) and sell to whoever they want to - bookies are no different

I doubt that will ever change


maybe my english is bad, but if you read well then you will understand that my point is not setting limits. Of course if i play a game with you and i dont find it interesting, i will stop. But if i play a game and you promise to be fair but come up with reason everyday to cheat me that is unfair.

my point is not about limits but point is about the things that are sure wrong which yourself know. I would not go ahead to argue with you. it is my opinion and it clearly does not suit you maybe because you are gaining now, but let see where it keeps you in 3 years.

maybe you will remember this, if not good luck.
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luctens
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2016, 06:41:43 PM »

Campaigning and getting lawyers onto unfair terms and conditions is just a waste of time as for every unfair term and condition, there is an extremely way to get round it in the first place, so the far easier, efficient and cost-effective way to deal with that problem is to take the easy steps necessary not to get caught by these unfair terms and conditions in the first place rather than waste time and money on court battles trying to repeal these terms.

It is true that every business has the right to sell to who they want etc, but the reality is, apart from bookmakers, what other different industries actually enforce that right?

For example, Tesco do loss leader offers like on their beer and other products. I'm sure there are plenty of customers that don't shop in Tesco at all and only go in there when there is such an offer on to buy whatever product is on a loss leader offer. Tesco loses money to those customers, it's as simple as that. Tesco have every legal right to refuse those customers from ever coming in their store again and from a pure/profit loss perspective, they should. But Tesco look at the bigger picture and they know that if they ban these customers, the inevitable poor PR image in the press etc created by taking this action would far outweigh any savings made from banning these unprofitable customers as they would also put off potential new and existing customers coming into the store therefore they don't ban any customers whatsoever, unprofitable or not.

For example though, if you go into a Betfred retail betting shop and you solely go in their to do their price boosts and nothing else, before long you'll probably be shown the door and the reason Betfred would do this is that they could get rid of unprofitable customers and the PR image would be pretty much unchanged because the press weren't taking any notice of it and no campaigners etc were doing anything about it. A win win for places like Betfred. This situation is changing now with the press taking a lot more attention of this and campaign groups campaigning against this and making inroads. This now means that the practices of banning unprofitable customers is giving them a poor PR image and therefore it may be discouraging a lot of new and existing recreational customers from using a place like Betfred, so if the bookmakers didn't take the lazy approach and looked at the bigger picture, banning unprofitable customers is probably actually a net loss to the bookmaker in the end when all is taken into account. The reality is, whatever the bookmaker may tell you, letting all customers bet won't bankrupt them overnight and will make very little difference to their overall bottom line, the fact is that they are greedy and even if banning unprofitable customers gives them a little more profit, they will do whatever they can to get that little more profit. But if the light bulb comes on for them and they realise that the amount of recreational business they are losing because of the poor PR image they are creating by banning other customers actually outweighs any savings made by banning unprofitable customers, they will soon change. As when all is said and done, they will do whatever they need to in order to pad their bottom line. They will have no problem whatsoever allowing unprofitable customers in if they believe that as a result of doing that, any losses on those customers will be wiped out by the profits on the increase of recreational business as a result of a better PR image as they are only concerned with increased profit, however they get to it is not a problem for them.

We have now had movements in Australia with minimum bet laws coming in and they are confident that this will be for all sports within a couple of years. We have also recently had Coral say that they will accept a bet to win £500 on any horse from any customer in shop after 11am. One of their guys on Twitter also confirmed that this was due to the man on the street hearing more and more about restrictions and getting put off betting in the first place so they feel they have been forced to make this concession.

I believe that the Australian and Coral movements is the first step onto bookmakers accepting that the PR image of banning customers is only going to get worse and customers can see that these practices are way out of line with what customers experience in all other industries and I think we will see further developments soon on these issues as bookmakers soon realise that banning unprofitable customers has an overall net loss to their business. I don't have much faith at all with The Gambling Commission doing anything about it so the only way for this to keep progressing is for the bookmakers to continually see their name being dragged through the mud in the press and put them in a position where they are forced to make a move and make concessions to all customers in order to stop this growing unwanted press and media attention.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2016, 07:00:33 PM by luctens » Logged

maletaja
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2016, 09:16:03 PM »

Sry guys there are fundamental error. As long as you enter bookie and make deposit you confirm T and C. You are their playground
Publicity wont help. You are just another gambler who whines about his losses When you want to get part of that business. u have to start bookie yourself and gather juisy 10% spread every bet
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luctens
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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2016, 11:57:41 PM »

Sry guys there are fundamental error. As long as you enter bookie and make deposit you confirm T and C. You are their playground
Publicity wont help. You are just another gambler who whines about his losses When you want to get part of that business. u have to start bookie yourself and gather juisy 10% spread every bet
You only have to look at the facts. 2 years ago it would have been unheard of to think that Australian bookmakers would have to lay all customers on horse racing and that Coral will lay all customers in shop on horse racing. What has caused that is campaigning groups and very bad publicity for the bookmakers. That shows there is progress in that area and that is worth campaigning for.

What isn't worth campaigning for is what you are suggesting which is to employ some lawyers to repeal some of the bookmakers' unfair terms and conditions. It's just not going to happen. It's far easier for you the customer, to look at all of the bookmakers terms, find out which are the dodgy/unfair terms and find ways not to get caught out by them. Job done.
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my_username
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« Reply #9 on: August 15, 2016, 08:55:27 AM »

bookies are mafia, just like bankers. laws in malta and gibraltar are so vague intentionally because that is their number one income and on top of that, bookies have terms of service written so broad and vague to apply any given situation if they wish so.

my argument is that terms of service cannot beat the law. you cannot circumvent a law with a simple I agree button.

and yes while bookies can set their own prices like most business, client discrimination is still illegal in the west, isn't it? can you deny a client just because? can sainsbury deny you entrance when you want to buy a loaf of bread? or raise beer prices just for you?

but who knows which laws they need to follow and if maltese laws even cover these situations

but yeah, fight is futile for arbers, because if we kick them and hurt them, they will find other ways to destroy our business and we'll draw the shortest straw in the end

so just find their mistakes and hammer them hard
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alimma
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2016, 11:31:39 AM »

Hello Guys,

i say it again, my point is not about the limits of player, it is inevitable every where, if a realationship is not good to one party, it is stopped that is simple. but my point is not on limits.

I have read some many T and Cs of bookies and believe me that is not what they practice.

Where in the terms is it right to confiscate someones winning and ask for prove of income before betting. Are you the police.

where in the terms is it right to close an account not used and keep the money without reason. so do that to 1 million users and you become bill gate.

where in the terms is it right to payout some winning and keep some in the name of verification. so what happened when you were paying the others, are you blind.

where in the terms are you allowed to change the odds of betting after the macth has finished some hours ago. So if i bet at a odd of 3 at bet365 and it has 3.2 at others, then at the end of the match, bet365 has the right to pay out at the odd of 2 right: NO  that is not in the terms.

My point is about the things not in the terms and that is what needs to be fought for, every bookie has the right to void bet or the right to limit, Yes that is in the terms but not for unnecessary partice.

Yesterday, a discussion with one guy from the commission, 1XBET refused to pay out 17000 pounds and said the user logined from a computer that already has an account. OMG, so it has become one house, one computer, give it time if unchecked, it iwill become one country one computer.

Yes this bookies are mafia, so can Arber be, when you keep calm at unnecessary things, it becomes necessary and accepted. When you fight it, then they learn it doesnt work for everyone and avoid you.

All i am saying is a fair game between both parties.

For me, i have made more money in Arb than anything i have done in my life but believe me, the fear of this stories is making it difficult to place a bet of 500 pounds without worrying if it will stand when it has won.

UNDERSTAND MY POINTS GUYS AND THINK ABOUT TOMORROW.

Yes a good advice is to enjoy it while it last, but like i have said, i betted on casino one time and covered all the number except 2, my profit was small but every day i got the same amount i deposit, very nice. Then one day i deposited alot out of greed and lost all on 2 outcome that are the same. Is that a programming errror, yes it is. but that is not the point.

So guys think  and understand my point.

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MaxShalamar
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« Reply #11 on: August 15, 2016, 03:15:28 PM »

Are you saying that if you operate outside of the terms and conditions of the bookie (which you agreed to) then they have to bow down and pay you out or change their rules?
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alimma
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« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2016, 04:20:17 PM »

Are you saying that if you operate outside of the terms and conditions of the bookie (which you agreed to) then they have to bow down and pay you out or change their rules?

PLEASE TELL ME A PLACE IN THE BOOKIES WHERE YOU CAN FIND THIS RULES

Where in the terms is it right to confiscate someones winning and ask for prove of income before betting. Are you the police.

where in the terms is it right to close an account not used and keep the money without reason. so do that to 1 million users and you become bill gate.

where in the terms is it right to payout some winning and keep some in the name of verification. so what happened when you were paying the others, are you blind.

where in the terms are you allowed to change the odds of betting after the macth has finished some hours ago. So if i bet at a odd of 3 at bet365 and it has 3.2 at others, then at the end of the match, bet365 has the right to pay out at the odd of 2 right: NO  that is not in the terms.
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MaxShalamar
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« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2016, 04:46:25 PM »

Quote
where in the terms is it right to payout some winning and keep some in the name of verification. so what happened when you were paying the others, are you blind

They have every right to do that to prevent money laundering
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luctens
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« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2016, 05:16:38 PM »

bookies are mafia, just like bankers. laws in malta and gibraltar are so vague intentionally because that is their number one income and on top of that, bookies have terms of service written so broad and vague to apply any given situation if they wish so.

my argument is that terms of service cannot beat the law. you cannot circumvent a law with a simple I agree button.

and yes while bookies can set their own prices like most business, client discrimination is still illegal in the west, isn't it? can you deny a client just because? can sainsbury deny you entrance when you want to buy a loaf of bread? or raise beer prices just for you?

but who knows which laws they need to follow and if maltese laws even cover these situations

but yeah, fight is futile for arbers, because if we kick them and hurt them, they will find other ways to destroy our business and we'll draw the shortest straw in the end

so just find their mistakes and hammer them hard
Quite a few of the bookmakers' terms and conditions would be laughed at in a court of law and we know that they are unfair but we don't want to have regular court battles regarding these terms so it is much easier for us to make sure we don't get caught out by these terms in the first place.

Discrimination in the west is defined as refusing the custom of somebody because of their race, age, sex etc. Refusing custom or changing the terms of custom because they are unprofitable to the business isn't defined as discrimination so in your example if Sainsburys wanted to ban you from the shop or raise beer prices for you just because you only take advantage of their loss leader offers and therefore you're unprofitable for them, Sainsburys are well within their rights to do that and it isn't illegal whatsoever. However, as I said in my previous post, except from practically just the bookmaking industry, practically no other industry actually uses this legal right they have to ban unprofitable customers, because the businesses know the backlash it would cause by all customers because although this practice isn't defined as discrimination, customers would see it as exactly that and the PR image for a company like Sainsburys would be ghastly and if they look at it overall, most probably Sainsburys realise that although they could very easily ban unprofitable customers, the PR backlash that would cause and the amount of normal shoppers put off shopping with them because of that would actually result on an overall net loss to their business, so they therefore begrudgingly allow these unprofitable customers into their store to shop like the rest of us.

And that very poor PR image for banning customers is starting to be felt hard by the bookmakers and I believe they are seeing more and more normal bettors being put off betting with them because of the poor PR image creating by the publicity surrounding banning customers and that will like in the example of Sainsburys result in the amount of normal bettors not betting with them because of the poor PR image outweighing any savings made from banning unprofitable customers, and therefore they will soon wake up to the realisation that these practices of banning customers is actually a net loss to their business which is why I believe we will see more developments in this area soon.
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