Arbing between different currency accounts?

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viking2
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viking2

Arbing between different currency accounts?
« on: September 17, 2016, 09:19:46 PM »

First off, since most of the people here are in europe as i posted a question on what country is everyone here from and most people mentioned somewhere in Europe and the moderator here or one of the mods showed stats where most of the arbers here are from europe.  I assume almost all of you keep all your currency accounts in euros right?  I would figure the 2nd most important currency is usd right?  Then its pounds?

I know there are books out there that are only Euro currency or usd currency.  My question that i want to ask is... is it very hard to do an arb where the 2 books you are doing an arb, one is euro and the other is usd or say pounds?  I know most books like pinnacle etc allow you to choose the currency you desire.  But some books only allow certain currency only such as usd or euro... or am i wrong about the euro part?


Say you saw a game where odds on book A is -130 odds and its in euro odds.  Now book B is +135 odds and its in euro odds.  Wells thats pretty easy to do an arb since you can use an arb calculator and you can put exactly how much to bet on each book to arb.  Now let say the +135 odds are in USD or say pounds?  First you would need to do the same thing as know how much is the euros to bet on each book.  But for the book with +135 and let say its in USD, then you have to convert the Euro amount to usd right?  So doing this would be pretty much the same?  Or its different because the euro/usd or euro/pound rate changes constantly?  Obviously if you keep all books in the same currency, its simple. 


I'm wondering are there people here that do arbs between books that are different currencies?  And even if do these arbs, do you actually lose money once say at the end of the match, whether you won the bet at the euro book or usd book, if the euro goes weaker or stronger against usd, then you actually lose money during this time since the match started?  Does that make sense in what im saying or is my logic completely wrong here? 


Also would you say its not worth it because when you factor in having to convert everything back to euro, you actually lose money?  Say if you had to convert the usd or pound back to euro since euro is your primary currency.


Would like if anyone does this or has input on it.  Obviously everything in same currency makes things much simpler.
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viking2
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viking2

Re: Arbing between different currency accounts?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2016, 10:16:44 PM »

I like to also ask.  If you frequently deposit/withdraw, does this play any impact?  Does it matter if the usd to euro rate gets weaker or stronger or it plays an absolute part in this?  I read another thread where someone said they arb with euro acct and one site that only allow usd.  The issue was they were winning in the usd account but when they withdrew, the usd rate cost that person money... i don't recall if they said it got stronger or weaker against the euro.  Do you want the dollar to be stronger or weaker against the euro if you are winning in the euro book?  What about the usd book?  Or does it not matter?
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Kalitko
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Kalitko

Re: Arbing between different currency accounts?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2016, 07:17:34 PM »

I have considered the option and for now decided not to bother. Since all sharps allow EUR accounts I guess your soft leg will be in a USD account meaning most likely you will end up with more USD then you started, so you would hope for EUR/USD going down. You can hedge your risk on the financial markets with some currency swaps, but I guess even among the pros here noone would go that far  :D  What is bothering me more is that I would need to pay not one but two times for currency conversion in the e-wallet which would require more work in order to be worth it.

If I am out of options I would probably give it a try but for now I don't.
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igulatas
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igulatas

Re: Arbing between different currency accounts?
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2016, 11:20:29 PM »

I am from Turkey and i use Turkish Lira (TRY) for almost all of my soft bookies and i use EUR for pinny.

I use https://en.surebet.com/calculator calculator which also converts the currencies.

TRY/USD rates are very changeable. To reduce the financial risks, i fix the rate to my last exchange rate. Of course sometimes i have some  loss, but it is not important because the profits are always more than the loss caused by the rate movement ;)  ;D
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viking2
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Re: Arbing between different currency accounts?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2016, 03:59:53 AM »

Hey guys here is the examples i want to use and would like some clarification on this.



Example 1


Let say bet365 has odds of team A is +180 odds.  Account is in USD currency.


Now let say matchbook account is in euros.  Or pinnacle account is in euros. 


So lets say pinnacle account in euros and odds are -175.


Let say you bet $1000 to win $1800 USD on bet365.


On pinnacle, with odds of -175.  You should be risking $1781.82 to win $1018.18.  Thus the arb would be for $18.18 no matter which side wins.


But since the pinnacle account is in euros, you have to convert the $1781.82 into euro in real time right?  Thus as of now its 1641.25 Euros. 


Then you would risk 1641.25 euros to win 937.85 euros?


So here you profit $18.18 right?  Or not because of the currency?  Thus in this, does the euro getting stronger or weaker against the dollar play a important part here?  Im very confused here because i believe this does right?  So in this example, do you want the euro to be stronger against the dollar or weaker against the dollar?  Does it depend on if you win the bet on the bet365 usd or the pinnacle euro?



Example 2


Same example and numbers.  But let say its matchbook and the odds are in euros.  Lets just say the odds are +180 on bet365 and say the odds on the other side at matchbook is -172.  Since matchbook charges 3 percent fee... the -172 comes to about -175 right?  Thus similar as if this was -175 on pinnacle?  So here whatever is the answer to the 1st example applies to matchbook right?  This is assuming matchbook is in euro account and bet365 is in usd account.


Im wondering how do people arb if they cannot get certain accounts in one same currency.  Or is it not possible to do arb because of the currency.  Now heres the other thing though.  Let say the book that is in Euros pays you out in bitcoin and you deposit/withdraw with bitcoin on it.  If thats the case, does it matter if the euro gets stronger or weaker against the dollar?  Or does that not matter at all?  If its with skrill/neteller as your deposit/payout, im assuming yes.  But if its using bitcoin, there isn't?
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barbero
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Re: Arbing between different currency accounts?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2016, 05:33:12 PM »

That's correct. I believe that if you want to arb in different currencies you will just have to take the FX risk. It can happen that you get lots of arbs landing on the same currency and that currency depreciating, thus losing money. However it can also go the other way round, and if you believe you place enough arbs so that in the end it will even out and you want to ignore the FX risk, you can go for it. What you will not be able to do, IMO, is for example hedge your positions at the end of the day... because its too time and money consuming for it to be worth it (I am no expert whatsoever but I believe it takes too much effort unless you are already and expert or at least familiar with FX markets, and even so, probably not worth it as you should be losing in commissions there). If you absolutely NEED to do it to remove FX risk then arbing in diff currencies might not worth it in the first place...
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viking2
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viking2

Re: Arbing between different currency accounts?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2016, 07:06:15 PM »

hi there thanks for response barbero.  Okay assuming you are winning in the euro book, do you want the euro to get stronger or weaker against usd?

So for example, 1 euro now is 1.09 usd.  So if you are winning at the euro currency book, you would want 1 euro to be equal to 1.10 usd as oppose to 1.08 usd right? 


And 1 euro is 1.09 usd... if 1 euro goes to 1.10 usd... that means the euro is getting stronger.  But if it goes to 1.08 usd, the euro is getting weaker right?


But if you are winning in the usd book, you want the usd to be stronger against the euro and vice versa?


The other thing is this.  Assuming you don't cash out your balance, does it really matter much?  Thus 1 euro is about 1.09 usd.... but it will fluctuate a lot etc.  But it only matters if you deposit/withdraw a lot?
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barbero
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barbero

Re: Arbing between different currency accounts?
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2016, 11:29:34 PM »

Yes to all viking2

Regarding the last question, it matters if the FX rate has changed from the moment of your deposit to the moment your withdrawal. If it were to remain stable, you wouldn't feel it (say EUR/USD = 1.08 when you deposit and EUR/USD = 1.08 when you withdraw, then no effect on your results at all, supposing you can change between currencies with 0 or low commission after you withdraw). If it changes, and for example € got stronger and you won more € than $, then good for you; if on the contrary you got more $, bad for you. This is what "ignoring FX risk means": considering that it will remain stable. Of course it won't and it will change, but you might just assume the risk and sometimes win and sometimes lose, if you feel it is important for you to access those bookies.
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viking2
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viking2

Re: Arbing between different currency accounts?
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2017, 05:43:31 AM »

Let say bet365 has odds of team A is +180 odds.  Account is in USD currency.


Now let say matchbook account is in euros.  Or pinnacle account is in euros. 


So lets say pinnacle account in euros and odds are -175.


Let say you bet $1000 to win $1800 USD on bet365.


On pinnacle, with odds of -175.  You should be risking $1781.82 to win $1018.18.  Thus the arb would be for $18.18 no matter which side wins.


But since the pinnacle account is in euros, you have to convert the $1781.82 into euro in real time right?  Thus as of now its 1641.25 Euros. 


Then you would risk 1641.25 euros to win 937.85 euros?


So here you profit $18.18 right?  Or not because of the currency?  Thus in this, does the euro getting stronger or weaker against the dollar play a important part here?  Im very confused here because i believe this does right?  So in this example, do you want the euro to be stronger against the dollar or weaker against the dollar?  Does it depend on if you win the bet on the bet365 usd or the pinnacle euro?



Example 2


Same example and numbers.  But let say its matchbook and the odds are in euros.  Lets just say the odds are +180 on bet365 and say the odds on the other side at matchbook is -172.  Since matchbook charges 3 percent fee... the -172 comes to about -175 right?  Thus similar as if this was -175 on pinnacle?  So here whatever is the answer to the 1st example applies to matchbook right?  This is assuming matchbook is in euro account and bet365 is in usd account.


Im wondering how do people arb if they cannot get certain accounts in one same currency.  Or is it not possible to do arb because of the currency.  Now heres the other thing though.  Let say the book that is in Euros pays you out in bitcoin and you deposit/withdraw with bitcoin on it.  If thats the case, does it matter if the euro gets stronger or weaker against the dollar?  Or does that not matter at all?  If its with skrill/neteller as your deposit/payout, im assuming yes.  But if its using bitcoin, there isn't?



I posted this earlier. 


Can someone tell me how much you are suppose to bet on the euro currency side in that earlier example?  i did a few bets like this but after the wager is graded, the number does not come out right at all.  I use a certain excel sheet that has an arbitrage calculate such as if you see one side is -185 and other side is +190 how much to bet on each side etc.  But with one account being a euro currency, isn't what i showed above correct?  Thus if its -185 on matchbook, then well its about -188 due to the 1.5 percent commission?  And previously it was 1% commission so the -185 is about -187?  The thing that is confusing is when converting the usd amt to euro, are you suppose to use that amount as the risk amount or to win amount?  I did a few of these bets and after wager is graded, it isn't correct...
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maletaja
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Re: Arbing between different currency accounts?
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2017, 08:25:03 AM »

Yes, but how do u get usd out from bookie?Main problem is that ewallets are greedy about any conversations usd-eur. If u are not any vip. margin is usually 5%
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viking2
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Re: Arbing between different currency accounts?
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2017, 03:07:36 PM »

Well here is the thing.  In my example, the other account that is in USD currency i withdraw to skrill which is a usd accout as well.  The thing is most of my accounts are USD.  I prefer this since many of the bookmakers i use have usd as their default account.  I know most ppl here use euro as their main currency. 


But can you or someone tell me what exactly im doing wrong here in the example?


Example


Team A is +180 on bet365

Team B is -175 on matchbook


Bet365 account is in usd.  MB account is in Euros.  Let say the max amount i can bet on the bet365 is $1000 to make it simple.  I have a spreadsheet where there is an arbitrage calculator where it calculates how much you should bet on each side for the arb.


So example lets make it very simple.  Bet365 is usd account.  Pinnacle account is usd.  Bet365 odds are +180 for Team A.  Pinnacle odds are -175 for Team B.


When i put this in the arb calculator and put $1000 to win $1800 at bet365, it tells me i should be risking $1792.81 to win $1007.19 at pinnacle.  Thus no matter which side wins, you profit an arb of $7.19.  I know this is correct.


Now let say same odds with bet365 and pinnacle.  But your pinnacle account is in euros.  Well you risk $1000 to win $1800 on bet365.  You are suppose to risk $1792.81 to win $1007.19 at pinnacle but you can't since pinnacle is in euro odds.  So you would convert the $1792.81 to euros?  Thus its now risk 1688.07 euros to win XXX amount at pinnacle?  Or is it the 2nd number?  Im not sure if i sound confusing with this?


But yes so with matchbook assuming odds of +180 at bet365 and -175 on matchbook... well its not -175 due to the commission.  Thus when it was 1 percent commission, the -175 is about -177.  And now since its 1.5 percent commission, the -175 is about -178... is that correct?  Then you have to put it in arb calculator and put +180 for bet+365 and -178 for matchbook?  Or is there some special matchbook calculator spreadsheet for this?  I do have one that is for matchbook that i got a while back and i believe it calculates to the exact cent.  The issue again is when i do this, it doesn't match the arb result once the result is over.  thus when i calculate i won X amount at bet365 which is in usd and then subtract the amt i lost at mb which is the euro converted to usd... it never matches up.  Does anyone know what im doing wrong here?  Can someone calculate how much you are suppose to bet in euros in the example where bet365 is +180.  MB is -175 odds and of course it being in euros?  I know if both are in same currency, well thats just a quick breeze right?





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Alfa1234
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Re: Arbing between different currency accounts?
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2017, 03:26:14 PM »

I really don't see the problem.  I you are supposed to risk 1792.81USD in Pinnacle, you simply convert that numer to euros which would make about 1686.55€ to risk.  Your profit would be the exact same so either 7.19USD if you win in Bet365 or that number converted into euros (6.76€) if you win in Pinnacle.  Considering the fact you will most likely be draining your Pinnacle account long term, withdrawing from it and converting that € back into USD should not be a big issue.

For Matchbook, it depends on the commission % you pay obviously...
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viking2
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Re: Arbing between different currency accounts?
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2017, 06:58:27 PM »

Hey there.  So for the pinnacle you basically covert the 1792.81 usd to euros in google right?  It shows 1689.98 euros at the moment.  So that means risk 1689.98 euros to win 949.43 euros on pinnacle assuming the odds are -178 on pinnacle and +180 on bet365 correct?


The thing is my pinnacle account is in usd though but im using that as an example. 

But the main thing is matchbook.  If bet365 has +180 odds on team A and matchbook has -175 odds on team B.... and you risk 1000 usd to win 1800 usd on bet365, how much are you suppose to risk on matchbook since its in euros?  Matchbook has 1.5 percent commision which means the -175 is about -178 right?  Then it should be around the same as the above example if pinnacle has -178 odds and is euro account?  Thus you risk around 1689.98 euros to win 949.43 euros?  Is there an arb calculator mainly for matchbook where you put in the commission rate and then it tells you how much to bet in the arb?  I do have one in excel but not sure if its accurate because these bets i did, the numbers just doesn't seem to add up once the bets are graded.  Thus example say you win the bet at bet365 and lose at matchbook.  Well you supose to profit say $8.  But instead when you subtract the matchbook loss when converting the euro to usd, that number isn't $8.  Sometimes it off a lot each way.


The other thing is wouldn't this get more confusing when the matchbook side is + money?  Thus instead of +180 on bet365 and -175 on mb... let say it was -175 on bet365 and +180 on matchbook?  How would the calculation work here?  Lets assume you risk 1750 to win 1000 on bet365.  How much euros you have to risk on mb with odds of +180 since theres that 1.5 percent commission?  thus the +180 would be around +177 right?


The thing is when i did this, it seems you had to do the conversion much different when mb has the + odds instead of - odds.
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