Which softs for start up? (page 3)

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dejected
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2016, 08:50:01 PM »

I think I disagree again Alfa. Restricting accounts is done by a two stage process, algorithms that run periodically and decide if your account is of interest. That creates a list of suspect accounts that are reviewed manually by traders. I believe they have to do it that way because of data protection laws. If an algorithm makes a decision about you, you can send a data protection request asking for details of how the algorithm works. They don't want the algorithms in the public domain, so all the algorithms do is put a flag on your account. The traders then make "the decision" whether to restrict you. Remember the email you get saying it is a traders decision, there is a reason for that!

If you think there is a trader that looks at your account after every transaction than they must have a lot of traders! Openbet broke the record for transactions last grand national day, 65 million transactions in a 24 hour period. The numbers are just too big for much to be done manually these days!

It could be that a  withdrawal request when there are flags on your account may cause an immediate review by a trader, instead of the end of the week / month / quarter however often they do it. So it seem like it was the withdrawal that caused it to be restricted.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 08:55:18 PM by dejected » Logged
Alfa1234
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2016, 09:13:17 PM »

All I'm saying is, a withdrawal can sometimes be a trigger for them to have an extra look over an account and that way indirectly cause a limitation.  I know for a fact I've been limited by some bookies after a withdrawal while before the account was fine.  Coïncidence?  No, because it's happened too often.  Not saying that's how they all operate, but some definitely do.

Not all bookies work in the same way.
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2016, 09:28:51 PM »

All I'm saying is, a withdrawal can sometimes be a trigger for them to have an extra look over an account and that way indirectly cause a limitation.  I know for a fact I've been limited by some bookies after a withdrawal while before the account was fine.  Coïncidence?  No, because it's happened too often.  Not saying that's how they all operate, but some definitely do.

Not all bookies work in the same way.

So that probably means that with some software, a withdrawal does trigger a review. There are a lot more bookies than software suppliers, so I would guess it would be similar for all the ones using the same software. Were they big withdrawals? It could be over a certain limit triggers a review immediately, rather than waiting for a periodic one.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 09:38:27 PM by dejected » Logged
Alfa1234
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2016, 10:00:46 PM »

Mid to high 4 figures.
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luctens
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2016, 10:03:15 PM »

I have not "made anything up" at all about what I've stated here about withdrawals. I've said it is my opinion and I've never represented it as fact or anything.

I've never said that a withdrawal will directly get you restricted or that it's only a withdrawal that will trigger your account for a review, it's simply one of the things that may flag up your account, and I've just said that the more withdrawals you do, the more chance of something getting flagged or triggered and the more chance of a trader looking over your account and therefore more chance of your account getting limited.

I've said many times previously that hitting value lines is the one thing that will get you limited more than anything, but just in case the algorithms hadn't caught up with you yet, you won't want to give the bookies an open goal opportunity to have a look over your account by you bringing attention to yourself by requesting a withdrawal, as that will increase the chances of a manual review being undertaken so that then contributes to the chances of your account getting limited.

There's things about bookmakers closing customers down that punters can't really control, but all punters can do is keep control of what they can control, and what we can control is the amount of times we bring up unwanted attention to our account by making withdrawals and making any other contact with the bookmaker, so it's our job to limit those times we initiate possible unwanted attention to our account by limiting any contact with the bookmaker down to zero if at all possible.

The very simple thing is, the more you stay under the radar at a bookmaker the longer you'll last there, and making a withdrawal brings unwanted attention to your account, so it's a very obvious point to make that it's in the bettor's interests to limit the number of withdrawals to as small an amount as possible, obviously if at all possible not making any withdrawals whatsoever for the whole time that you have an account at a bookmaker unrestricted.

And that goes for any other contact with the bookmaker as well in that if at all possible don't contact the bookmaker even about a trivial matter, as again it just brings unwanted attention to your account and somebody may end up having a scan over your account to see what your betting is like just because you've contacted them about some silly issue. So very simply, stay under the radar as much as possible by trying not to need to contact the bookmaker at any point whilst you still have an account unrestricted.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2016, 10:13:12 PM by luctens » Logged
Alfa1234
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2016, 10:14:29 PM »

And that goes for any other contact with the bookmaker as well in that if at all possible don't contact the bookmaker even about a trivial matter, as again it just brings unwanted attention to your account and somebody may end up having a scan over your account to see what your betting is like just because you've contacted them about some silly issue. So very simply, stay under the radar as much as possible by trying not to need to contact the bookmaker at any point whilst you still have an account unrestricted.

Agreed, we can never know for certain what triggers a manual review...so if you have managed to stay under the radar at a certain bookie you should do everything possible to keep it that way.  Making an uneccesary withdrawal does not fall into that category.  Is that being paranoid?  Maybe, but why take the risk?
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barbero
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2016, 10:19:02 PM »

What about this 'data protection request' thing? dejected, did you try that already and had any useful results? Perhaps we can have something here?

Any info on that and how it is issued would be great, this is new
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dejected
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2016, 12:11:50 AM »

What about this 'data protection request' thing? dejected, did you try that already and had any useful results? Perhaps we can have something here?

Any info on that and how it is issued would be great, this is new

A few beers later...

Yes I've done it a few of times. Depends where the bookies are based, but if they are in the EU then they have to respond to a data protection request. Just send an email to support. They can charge for it, but only to recover their costs. Around the €/£ 10 mark. Trader notes on your account will usually tell you the exact reason for the restrictions. But in most cases it will be the same, For me... early price advantage of X%., possible arber even though I don't arb!

I can dig out the email I send if anyone thinks it will be of use. Always interesting to know the real reason and it does piss them off :)
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barbero
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2016, 12:24:04 AM »

hehe that sounds great. I will try that myself next time I get limited, I'd like to see their reaction. If you can share that email, great so they don't mess around. Else don't worry, I guess it's pretty standard and I'll manage.

Thanks!
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Alfa1234
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2016, 09:02:41 AM »

Just looked it up, isn't that just for UK bookies?
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dejected
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2016, 10:13:23 AM »

Just looked it up, isn't that just for UK bookies?

Depends where they are running their businesses from. Most of the UK bookies online business is not based in the UK for tax reasons. They are mainly in Gibraltar or Malta. Both of those jurisdictions have data protection regulations. I think everywhere in the EU should have it. Rest of the world, not so sure.
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Zizou79
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2016, 07:03:28 AM »

I have just a question about the withdrawal: are you saying any withdrawal might get you flagged? Or do you refer to withdrawals over a certain amount? At the start of the month I always go through my accounts and see if a certain soft bookie account has maybe too much so I can withdraw to Skrill and deposit it where the funds are lower without the need to increase my current bankroll. A point in case is that I have a certain bookie which won 'too much' this past month and I'd like to do a withdrawal of 450 to keep the account with 500 to use for this month. Would that flag me up or would it just look like a normal withdrawal from a normal punter?

Also, is it normal that a bookie charges 2% on skrill withdrawals? I've encountered just one so far and it's this particular bookie from the case above.
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luctens
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2016, 03:54:25 PM »

I have just a question about the withdrawal: are you saying any withdrawal might get you flagged? Or do you refer to withdrawals over a certain amount? At the start of the month I always go through my accounts and see if a certain soft bookie account has maybe too much so I can withdraw to Skrill and deposit it where the funds are lower without the need to increase my current bankroll. A point in case is that I have a certain bookie which won 'too much' this past month and I'd like to do a withdrawal of 450 to keep the account with 500 to use for this month. Would that flag me up or would it just look like a normal withdrawal from a normal punter?

Also, is it normal that a bookie charges 2% on skrill withdrawals? I've encountered just one so far and it's this particular bookie from the case above.
Yes, a withdrawal might get you flagged. Nobody can say for sure but certainly there is a chance your account may get flagged for review because of a withdrawal, as opposed to there is obviously there is no chance for an account to get flagged for a withdrawal if you make no withdrawal, so it certainly increases the risk of your account getting limited every time you withdraw.

I'd expect that the higher the withdrawal you more chance your account will get flagged, but nobody knows for sure what sort of withdrawal amount may get you flagged or if bookmakers even have a set policy on particular amounts of withdrawals that they will initiate a review on, but common sense tells you that the higher the withdrawal is, the higher the chance you have of your account getting looked into on the back of a withdrawal.

If you withdraw 450, that might get your account flagged for review, what is certain is that you make that 450 withdrawal there is more chance of your account getting looked at because of that withdrawal as opposed to if you don't make that withdrawal. It might look like a normal withdrawal from a normal punter to them, but as we don't know exactly what parameters they set on when they think a punter is smart or not, nobody knows for sure if that 450 withdrawal will make you look like a normal punter or not. What is certain is that the worse the punter is, the less they end up withdrawing, so the more you withdraw, the more chance that a bookmaker might think you may be a smart punter and have a look around your account as opposed to if you didn't make that withdrawal.

My very simple point about withdrawals is that generally, you need to stay under the radar as much as possible, and one of the ways you can do that is to limit your withdrawals from a bookmaker to an absolute minimum, ideally down to absolutely zero, as that limits the number of unwanted additional opportunities and excuses on top of algorithms etc that the bookie has to look over your account and possibly limit it. So very simply, if there's a way you can avoid doing the withdrawal, then avoid doing it, but that solely depends on your bankroll and your personal circumstances as to whether you can avoid that withdrawal or not. If the withdrawal is totally unavoidable as it sometimes may be, then you have to make that withdrawal, you have no choice, but even still at that stage, limit the amount of the withdrawal to only what you absolutely need to withdraw.

The mindset you need to have is that if you think you need to withdraw, think again about if there are any other options of how you can move money around etc to avoid doing that withdrawal. If after checking all possible options you find that it is still unavoidable to make that withdrawal, then you will have to make that withdrawal, but then think about if you can limit that withdrawal down to only what you absolutely need to withdraw to reduce the chance of that withdrawal flagging your account. By having that mindset and thought process, you should be able to limit your withdrawals down to the absolute minimum and therefore reduce the number of additional opportunities and excuses that a bookmaker has to look over your account because of a withdrawal to an absolute minimum, and also reduce any withdrawals you do have to make to only what you absolutely need to withdraw at that time and no more, and therefore that increases the chances of your account staying unrestricted for longer. Obviously the bigger the bankroll you have the less you will need to withdraw as you will have more money to spread around so as your bankroll increases, you should find yourself in less of these situations where your bankroll is stretched in the future.

If you mean Jetbull are charging you 2% for withdrawal, their withdrawals should be free, and probably the only time where they may charge a withdrawal fee is if you haven't rolled over your deposit at least once, or there might be withdrawal fees specific for your country, so check the payments page from the country you're logged into Jetbull from to see if it says the withdrawal should be free or have a 2% fee, and if it says it should be free, see if you've rolled over your deposit at least once. If after all of that as far as you can see you should be getting a free withdrawal, you will need to contact Jetbull and ask why they are trying to charge you a 2% withdrawal fee.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 04:05:06 PM by luctens » Logged
Zizou79
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2016, 06:56:20 PM »

I have just a question about the withdrawal: are you saying any withdrawal might get you flagged? Or do you refer to withdrawals over a certain amount? At the start of the month I always go through my accounts and see if a certain soft bookie account has maybe too much so I can withdraw to Skrill and deposit it where the funds are lower without the need to increase my current bankroll. A point in case is that I have a certain bookie which won 'too much' this past month and I'd like to do a withdrawal of 450 to keep the account with 500 to use for this month. Would that flag me up or would it just look like a normal withdrawal from a normal punter?

Also, is it normal that a bookie charges 2% on skrill withdrawals? I've encountered just one so far and it's this particular bookie from the case above.
Yes, a withdrawal might get you flagged. Nobody can say for sure but certainly there is a chance your account may get flagged for review because of a withdrawal, as opposed to there is obviously there is no chance for an account to get flagged for a withdrawal if you make no withdrawal, so it certainly increases the risk of your account getting limited every time you withdraw.

I'd expect that the higher the withdrawal you more chance your account will get flagged, but nobody knows for sure what sort of withdrawal amount may get you flagged or if bookmakers even have a set policy on particular amounts of withdrawals that they will initiate a review on, but common sense tells you that the higher the withdrawal is, the higher the chance you have of your account getting looked into on the back of a withdrawal.

If you withdraw 450, that might get your account flagged for review, what is certain is that you make that 450 withdrawal there is more chance of your account getting looked at because of that withdrawal as opposed to if you don't make that withdrawal. It might look like a normal withdrawal from a normal punter to them, but as we don't know exactly what parameters they set on when they think a punter is smart or not, nobody knows for sure if that 450 withdrawal will make you look like a normal punter or not. What is certain is that the worse the punter is, the less they end up withdrawing, so the more you withdraw, the more chance that a bookmaker might think you may be a smart punter and have a look around your account as opposed to if you didn't make that withdrawal.

My very simple point about withdrawals is that generally, you need to stay under the radar as much as possible, and one of the ways you can do that is to limit your withdrawals from a bookmaker to an absolute minimum, ideally down to absolutely zero, as that limits the number of unwanted additional opportunities and excuses on top of algorithms etc that the bookie has to look over your account and possibly limit it. So very simply, if there's a way you can avoid doing the withdrawal, then avoid doing it, but that solely depends on your bankroll and your personal circumstances as to whether you can avoid that withdrawal or not. If the withdrawal is totally unavoidable as it sometimes may be, then you have to make that withdrawal, you have no choice, but even still at that stage, limit the amount of the withdrawal to only what you absolutely need to withdraw.

The mindset you need to have is that if you think you need to withdraw, think again about if there are any other options of how you can move money around etc to avoid doing that withdrawal. If after checking all possible options you find that it is still unavoidable to make that withdrawal, then you will have to make that withdrawal, but then think about if you can limit that withdrawal down to only what you absolutely need to withdraw to reduce the chance of that withdrawal flagging your account. By having that mindset and thought process, you should be able to limit your withdrawals down to the absolute minimum and therefore reduce the number of additional opportunities and excuses that a bookmaker has to look over your account because of a withdrawal to an absolute minimum, and also reduce any withdrawals you do have to make to only what you absolutely need to withdraw at that time and no more, and therefore that increases the chances of your account staying unrestricted for longer. Obviously the bigger the bankroll you have the less you will need to withdraw as you will have more money to spread around so as your bankroll increases, you should find yourself in less of these situations where your bankroll is stretched in the future.

If you mean Jetbull are charging you 2% for withdrawal, their withdrawals should be free, and probably the only time where they may charge a withdrawal fee is if you haven't rolled over your deposit at least once, or there might be withdrawal fees specific for your country, so check the payments page from the country you're logged into Jetbull from to see if it says the withdrawal should be free or have a 2% fee, and if it says it should be free, see if you've rolled over your deposit at least once. If after all of that as far as you can see you should be getting a free withdrawal, you will need to contact Jetbull and ask why they are trying to charge you a 2% withdrawal fee.

Thanks for your comments. It's more or less what I thought, but was wondering if there is a "safe" withdrawal amount to avoid being flagged. Surely there are many people who withdraw on a daily basis after a certain genuine win, so I can't imagine the payments and fraud departments analysing every single account who does a withdrawal. I would think it would be someone over a certain amount, depending on how big the bookie is (e.g. Bet365 might check withdrawals over 10k, whereas a minor bookie would check withdrawals over 1k).

With regards to your last paragraph, I wasn't referring to Jetbull (as a matter of fact I never used them,so no idea about them), but about another bookie (not sure if I can mention names since my account got suspended last time for mentioning one).
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luctens
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Re: Which softs for start up?
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2016, 07:16:12 PM »

I have just a question about the withdrawal: are you saying any withdrawal might get you flagged? Or do you refer to withdrawals over a certain amount? At the start of the month I always go through my accounts and see if a certain soft bookie account has maybe too much so I can withdraw to Skrill and deposit it where the funds are lower without the need to increase my current bankroll. A point in case is that I have a certain bookie which won 'too much' this past month and I'd like to do a withdrawal of 450 to keep the account with 500 to use for this month. Would that flag me up or would it just look like a normal withdrawal from a normal punter?

Also, is it normal that a bookie charges 2% on skrill withdrawals? I've encountered just one so far and it's this particular bookie from the case above.
Yes, a withdrawal might get you flagged. Nobody can say for sure but certainly there is a chance your account may get flagged for review because of a withdrawal, as opposed to there is obviously there is no chance for an account to get flagged for a withdrawal if you make no withdrawal, so it certainly increases the risk of your account getting limited every time you withdraw.

I'd expect that the higher the withdrawal you more chance your account will get flagged, but nobody knows for sure what sort of withdrawal amount may get you flagged or if bookmakers even have a set policy on particular amounts of withdrawals that they will initiate a review on, but common sense tells you that the higher the withdrawal is, the higher the chance you have of your account getting looked into on the back of a withdrawal.

If you withdraw 450, that might get your account flagged for review, what is certain is that you make that 450 withdrawal there is more chance of your account getting looked at because of that withdrawal as opposed to if you don't make that withdrawal. It might look like a normal withdrawal from a normal punter to them, but as we don't know exactly what parameters they set on when they think a punter is smart or not, nobody knows for sure if that 450 withdrawal will make you look like a normal punter or not. What is certain is that the worse the punter is, the less they end up withdrawing, so the more you withdraw, the more chance that a bookmaker might think you may be a smart punter and have a look around your account as opposed to if you didn't make that withdrawal.

My very simple point about withdrawals is that generally, you need to stay under the radar as much as possible, and one of the ways you can do that is to limit your withdrawals from a bookmaker to an absolute minimum, ideally down to absolutely zero, as that limits the number of unwanted additional opportunities and excuses on top of algorithms etc that the bookie has to look over your account and possibly limit it. So very simply, if there's a way you can avoid doing the withdrawal, then avoid doing it, but that solely depends on your bankroll and your personal circumstances as to whether you can avoid that withdrawal or not. If the withdrawal is totally unavoidable as it sometimes may be, then you have to make that withdrawal, you have no choice, but even still at that stage, limit the amount of the withdrawal to only what you absolutely need to withdraw.

The mindset you need to have is that if you think you need to withdraw, think again about if there are any other options of how you can move money around etc to avoid doing that withdrawal. If after checking all possible options you find that it is still unavoidable to make that withdrawal, then you will have to make that withdrawal, but then think about if you can limit that withdrawal down to only what you absolutely need to withdraw to reduce the chance of that withdrawal flagging your account. By having that mindset and thought process, you should be able to limit your withdrawals down to the absolute minimum and therefore reduce the number of additional opportunities and excuses that a bookmaker has to look over your account because of a withdrawal to an absolute minimum, and also reduce any withdrawals you do have to make to only what you absolutely need to withdraw at that time and no more, and therefore that increases the chances of your account staying unrestricted for longer. Obviously the bigger the bankroll you have the less you will need to withdraw as you will have more money to spread around so as your bankroll increases, you should find yourself in less of these situations where your bankroll is stretched in the future.

If you mean Jetbull are charging you 2% for withdrawal, their withdrawals should be free, and probably the only time where they may charge a withdrawal fee is if you haven't rolled over your deposit at least once, or there might be withdrawal fees specific for your country, so check the payments page from the country you're logged into Jetbull from to see if it says the withdrawal should be free or have a 2% fee, and if it says it should be free, see if you've rolled over your deposit at least once. If after all of that as far as you can see you should be getting a free withdrawal, you will need to contact Jetbull and ask why they are trying to charge you a 2% withdrawal fee.

Thanks for your comments. It's more or less what I thought, but was wondering if there is a "safe" withdrawal amount to avoid being flagged. Surely there are many people who withdraw on a daily basis after a certain genuine win, so I can't imagine the payments and fraud departments analysing every single account who does a withdrawal. I would think it would be someone over a certain amount, depending on how big the bookie is (e.g. Bet365 might check withdrawals over 10k, whereas a minor bookie would check withdrawals over 1k).

With regards to your last paragraph, I wasn't referring to Jetbull (as a matter of fact I never used them,so no idea about them), but about another bookie (not sure if I can mention names since my account got suspended last time for mentioning one).
I wouldn't think that any bookie has a hard and fast withdrawal figure that if you deposited below of that figure that your account definitely won't get looked at on the back of a withdrawal. Definitely the higher your withdrawal the higher the chance you'll get looked into on the back of that withdrawal, but I wouldn't expect any bookie has a "safe" withdrawal amount where they never look into an account if they've withdrawn below a certain figure, there are probably many parameters rather than just the amount of the withdrawal as to why an account may get looked into on the back of a withdrawal, for example with any bookie, I expect somebody may withdraw £500 and may get looked into, whilst at the same bookie somebody might withdraw £4k and might not get looked into, as these systems will be far more sophisticated than just looking at the amount somebody has withdrawn and will take into account various other factors, but all we can do is to limit the number of withdrawals to a minimum, and even if you unavoidably must make a withdrawal, keep that withdrawal to as lower figure as possible, and then that way you've done your best on limiting the chance of your account being looked over on the back of a withdrawal.

You said "I've encountered just one so far and it's this particular bookie from the case above.", and the bookie that was being discussed above on this thread was Jetbull, so I thought you were talking about Jetbull with the 2% withdrawal fee. It certainly isn't normal for bookies to charge for Skrill withdrawals, but some do charge. You can name the bookie on here if you want to or if you don't, then the best general advice is to have a look over the bookie's site and look at their payments page and terms and conditions etc and see if there is any mention of a 2% Skrill withdrawal fee, and if after that you don't see that you should be getting charged a withdrawal fee, you will then need to contact the bookmaker to ask them why they are trying to charge you for the withdrawal.

« Last Edit: November 01, 2016, 07:19:25 PM by luctens » Logged
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