Arbusers

Adjoining their list of and reviews of books, RebelBetting has this list of 28 of them ranked by Juice% (I've added the some break-even numbers and an overall average):

1. Pinnacle            2.40  Break-even at 51.22
2. TheGreek          5.93  Break-even for 6% is around 53.20
3. SportsAlive        6.48  for 6.52% at 53.49
4. Centrebet          6.75
5. Bet365              6.84
6.BetSafe              7.00  Break-even for 7% around 53.75
7.12Bet                  7.12
8. Unibet                7.16
9.Expekt                7.45 Break-even at 54.02
10. StanJames      7.51
11. WorldSportsEx.  7.63
12. Bet24              7.65   
13. BlueSquare      7.67
14. NordicBet        7.70 at about 54.17
15. Betsson            7.78
16. 188Bet            7.93
17. WilliamHill        7.98 Break-even at 54.34
18. PaddyPower      8.19
19. Gamebookers    8.47
20. BWin                  8.51 for 8.5% at 54.65
21. Eurobet              8.52
22. SBO                  8.59
23. Canbet              8.98 for 9.09% at 55.00 (Look at that a "sharp" bettor can just barely break even at these books)
24. Intertops            9.36
25. BetAtHome        9.96 for 10% at 55.56
26. Ladbrokes          10.42
27. DiamondSportsbook  10.61 for 10.63% at 55.95
28. Interwetten                10.84  Break-even around 56.00

Overall Average                7.91  Break-even at 54.295

Followed by this (though I've no idea when this list was last updated): [iBased on data received every 60 seconds, 24 hours per day since September 2010.][/i] I understand that to mean these numbers are the cumulative average of juice rates since Sept. 2010 and not necessarily what they are now. Since the economy took a nosedive and the recovery has slowed to a crawl I imagine the rates of juice% have come down somewhat.

What do others think about all this? For arbers, middlers, and bonus-abusers maybe it seems like I'm beating dead horse by going on and on about this stuff, but try doing work in the area of value betting and this becomes a key issue to keep an eye on.

cool table mate - thanks!

Or for more complete current numbers broken down by overall profit margin (that's what juice really is) and by profit margin by sport, you can try this website (though I'm not sure how trustworthy it is; the web domain is registered to some fellow by the name of Adam Gajdusek of Slunečná 4558, Zlin, Czech Republic):

http://www.top100bookmakers.com/profit-margin/overall-margin.php

Marathon missing?

You're right Marathon is missing. As far as I know their overall average is at or around 2.50%. So break-even for them is 51.282

Wasn't it you who said that after arbitrage gambling is decadence?

Lansky wrote: Wasn't it you who said that after arbitrage gambling is decadence?

Yeap, why are you asking?

I don't think that 12bet/IBC & sbo do have such high juice!

Also a bit confusing, that dafa & 12bet have different % in misc. sports (they usually have the same odds as being sister-companies, both taking odds from their big mother IBCBet)

MUCHBET wrote: I don't think that 12bet/IBC & sbo do have such high juice!

On 1x2 markets they have. AH markets are whole different story, for exmaple on CHL and EPL games they have 1.25% juice compared to pinnacle's 1.5%

That list might be a bit old. Here is the juice table for 2013 so far (only for 3-way (1x2) and 2-way (12) odds):

2,65 Pinnacle
4,09 Marathonbet
4,09 Panbet
4,37 5Dimes
6,41 TheGreek
6,61 Betfred
6,71 StanJames
6,89 Dafabet
6,89 12Bet
7,25 Betinternet
7,53 Bet365
7,59 SBO
7,62 Intertops
7,62 Centrebet
7,63 Noxwin
7,80 10Bet
7,88 Unibet
7,96 WilliamHill
7,98 BlueSquare
8,02 NordicBet
8,04 Coral
8,10 188Bet
8,32 Expekt
8,50 Betsson
8,54 BetClic
8,68 Ladbrokes
8,99 BetSafe
8,99 PaddyPower
9,10 Tipico
9,27 Gamebookers
9,33 Betoto
9,38 BWin
10,09 BetAtHome
10,87 Interwetten

With profit margins (juice) like these it makes you wonder what's up with all the limits that get handed out.

Put another way have to ever heard of stock, commodity, or forex brokers limiting a client to a few miserable euros or dollars? No, because it's not their place to decide what goes up or down (who wins or looses). It's their place to be an intermediary and make the market between buyers and sellers possible.

What is a bookmaker in essence? Little more than a broker of bets and betting oppurtunities. Why is long term arbitrage over years and decades even possible? Because the betting markets are excessively inefficient compared to others. In part this is due to the stigma associated with betting which conservative and overly religious sectors of society continually dredge up.

What do others think? About this and about the future of the betting markets and arbitrage and value betting oppurtunities in those markets?

Lansky wrote: With profit margins (juice) like these it makes you wonder what's up with all the limits that get handed out.

Put another way have to ever heard of stock, commodity, or forex brokers limiting a client to a few miserable euros or dollars? No, because it's not their place to decide what goes up or down (who wins or looses). It's their place to be an intermediary and make the market between buyers and sellers possible.

What is a bookmaker in essence? Little more than a broker of bets and betting oppurtunities. Why is long term arbitrage over years and decades even possible? Because the betting markets are excessively inefficient compared to others. In part this is due to the stigma associated with betting which conservative and overly religious sectors of society continually dredge up.

What do others think? About this and about the future of the betting markets and arbitrage and value betting oppurtunities in those markets?

They are not brokers. Arbitrage betting could lead to them having an unbalanced book or to take an immediate loss if they choose to eliminate the risk by moving odds substantially.

The situation reminds me of Casinos banning card counters. The irony here is that Blackjack I believe became more popular once it was discovered that it could be beaten. Most players wouldn't  bother or couldn't count cards properly and as a result the Casinos have benefited from the situation.

Winners are good for the game and there is certainly a price to pay for the European books. Their attitude drives all the big players to the sharp books and most of the big players will be losers over time.

Unfortunately, if the situation were to change, bookies would move prices a lot more efficiency so as to eliminate arbitrage. We can't have it both ways. We are heading towards that direction anyway but I still  see a future in value betting. Players that can identify soft prices when there isn't an arbitrage will continue to make money, in my opinion.