Arbusers

A POSSIBLE explanation is...OP uses his own account to bet on games pre match, and manipulates lines there.  Placing a few limit bets on a line every day for 3-4 days.  By game day, the line will be "out of whack".  (say you bet on a tennis match that opens 1.92 / 1.92 and bet 1 side all the time at lower limits, by game day the line would be 1.4 / 2.95) He then uses the agent account to pound the other side of the line he slowly raised at 2.95, it's game day so the limits are much, much higher now, thus creating EV for himself.  This is line manipulation and could explain why his own account is still open, as he loses money there.  It does not explain the live betting losses though.

Alfa1234 wrote: A POSSIBLE explanation is...OP uses his own account to bet on games pre match, and manipulates lines there.  Placing a few limit bets on a line every day for 3-4 days.  By game day, the line will be "out of whack".  (say you bet on a tennis match that opens 1.92 / 1.92 and bet 1 side all the time at lower limits, by game day the line would be 1.4 / 2.95) He then uses the agent account to pound the other side of the line he slowly raised at 2.95, it's game day so the limits are much, much higher now, thus creating EV for himself.  This is line manipulation and could explain why his own account is still open, as he loses money there.  It does not explain the live betting losses though.

OP claims he's betting on high level matches.  You can't keep odds out of whack on ATP matches on a few small bets, someone else will bet the odds down again long before limits go up.

Aren't there two separate issues here?

1. Pinnacle accuses player of fraud, without providing any evidence. Honestly, Pinnacle has been doing a lot of this lately, also in situations where it's completely unclear as to why. It's worrying:  if you accuse someone, at least let them know what they did. But the days where you knew if Pinnacle booted someone, they must be fraudulent, are long gone.
But then again if PT, based on this, no longer wants someone as a client, they're free to kick them out.

2. PT not paying -> unacceptable. As far as I know, Pinnacle always pays the agent, even when kicking someone out. Why doesn't OP get this money then?  This is plain theft, unless, again, I'm missing something here.  And if I am, PT should be a bit more clear in what they write. I mean , "payouts were already performed on his winnings and the above statement does not correlate fully with the truth".  What? "not correlate fully"???  So, did you take this guy's money or didn't you take it?

Alfa1234 wrote: A POSSIBLE explanation is...OP uses his own account to bet on games pre match, and manipulates lines there.  Placing a few limit bets on a line every day for 3-4 days.  By game day, the line will be "out of whack".  (say you bet on a tennis match that opens 1.92 / 1.92 and bet 1 side all the time at lower limits, by game day the line would be 1.4 / 2.95) He then uses the agent account to pound the other side of the line he slowly raised at 2.95, it's game day so the limits are much, much higher now, thus creating EV for himself.  This is line manipulation and could explain why his own account is still open, as he loses money there.  It does not explain the live betting losses though.

I think this speaks for itself,

and my normal acc is limited for prematch so i cant bet there i only bet live on it, only prematch bets are this ones that i bet thru PT

Alfa1234 wrote: A POSSIBLE explanation is...OP uses his own account to bet on games pre match, and manipulates lines there.  Placing a few limit bets on a line every day for 3-4 days.  By game day, the line will be "out of whack".  (say you bet on a tennis match that opens 1.92 / 1.92 and bet 1 side all the time at lower limits, by game day the line would be 1.4 / 2.95) He then uses the agent account to pound the other side of the line he slowly raised at 2.95, it's game day so the limits are much, much higher now, thus creating EV for himself.  This is line manipulation and could explain why his own account is still open, as he loses money there.  It does not explain the live betting losses though.

Read again milion times what OP wrote, you speak nonsense

dealer wins wrote: If this is coming from the sportsbook  (PS3838) and not PT, then PT have no option but to refuse the client.  I can imagine that some people have sussed out a way to manipulate Pinnacles odds unfairly.

what a load of nonsense, you clearly use premiumtradings hence this BS, if they can do this to kapetan1122 then they can do the same to you,

only recently dealerwins you were calling betfair out, calling them strong names because they closed your account without stealing a penny from you, yet when this guy has an acount closed and also has money stolen you write "PT have no option to refuse the client"

how would you have felt dealerwins if someone had replied "betfair had no option to close your account" when you were on here
crying about your closed betfair account?

from what you wrote about Betfair recently, I can imagine the strong words you'd be using if premiumtradings were to do this to you?
of course this time it's not you and as a premiumtradings client you selfishly chose to write words justifying their theft.

First i would like to say that finally we found solution to my problem and my money was finally payed out!

There are few things i need to explain that i was unaware till now and i want to clear some things out:

1. I would like to thank Arbusers for helping me sort this things out, he was mediator between me and Premiumtradings the whole time.
2: I would also like to thank member of this forum who raise their voice and make neccecary pressure and speed things out.
3. In conclusion and my talks with arbusers and Premiumtradings i found out that Premiumtradings was not part of this problem like i previously tought, in explanation that i get unfortunately Pinnacle was the one who was holding my money and didnt want to pay out my winnings,tPT as agent was helpless in this situation and as i understood they even payed out first part of the money on their own,waiting on Pinnacle to pay them.
So i want to say that Premiumtradings was not to blame from beggining but all this fault was on Pinnacle side but not knowing it i put my blame on PT and now i finnaly resolved the case.

I would like to close this with explanation above and clear PT name with it as in the end they was not to blame like beeing explained.

Before anything else, we are very happy that Kapetan1122 got his money back in total.
Congrats to both Kapetan1122 and PremiumTradings for solving a really complex situation.

We presented our position on agents/brokers coverage several times. Different people have different needs. What is a solution for player A might be a problem for player B and vice versa. Every player must find out which agent suits best and conduct proper due diligence according to his standards and needs.

We are giving you the tools, but it is up to you to decide how to use them. In the end, if you don’t know how to use them, contact us, and let’s discuss it. You will be surprised by the solutions.

The agent style of betting comes with an extra layer of risk. It is not the same as betting in the shop down the corner. Agents are offering precious solutions and for these solutions, there is a premium risk one must take.

A smart bettor like the majority of our members is able to draw relevant conclusions. And the conclusions of this case are very much important.

Once again congrats to both Kapetan1122 and PremiumTradings.

vinciguerra wrote:

Alfa1234 wrote: A POSSIBLE explanation is...OP uses his own account to bet on games pre match, and manipulates lines there.  Placing a few limit bets on a line every day for 3-4 days.  By game day, the line will be "out of whack".  (say you bet on a tennis match that opens 1.92 / 1.92 and bet 1 side all the time at lower limits, by game day the line would be 1.4 / 2.95) He then uses the agent account to pound the other side of the line he slowly raised at 2.95, it's game day so the limits are much, much higher now, thus creating EV for himself.  This is line manipulation and could explain why his own account is still open, as he loses money there.  It does not explain the live betting losses though.

OP claims he's betting on high level matches.  You can't keep odds out of whack on ATP matches on a few small bets, someone else will bet the odds down again long before limits go up.

Alfa i think that vinciguerra is right here.You cannot manipulate odds at ATP.

It is not Premier league but is also a famous tournament and there are people who know the real odds.
If you try even to move the lines,you will get a correction(and especially pre-game).I believe that in obscure markets,if you have big capital,you can do whatever you want.

Anyway,happy ending for the story.Bravo Kapetan that you get paid!!This is really nice news.Well done to Arbusers and premium tradings for solving the problem.

Winners welcome. Arbitrage friendly.

Let me get it straight:

A sharp player like Kapetan is able to beat Pinnacle's lines.
Pinnacle (who is welcoming winners) is limiting his account.
Kapetan then moves to agents and keeps beating Pinnacle's lines.
Pinnacle spots his action and instructs the agent(s) to stop giving him accounts while withholding Kapetan's winnings.
Kapetan goes public with his case.
When Pinnacle's behavior is revealed, he magically receives his money.

There is no-one to blame but Pinnacle. Instead of correcting their lines, they discourage players by limiting their accounts and delaying payments.

Winners welcome? Really?

big respect to Kapetan. Don't know how you'll move forward in your business, after this bad experience, But you have all my respect.

I've never used PT before so I can't say any personal opinion over them. I'm happy they finally helped Kapetan to solve his issue.

FINALLY, bad bad bad Pinnacle... if also (supposed??) market leaders like Pinnacle starts acting like this with smart punters, I really don't know where this business will go.

I hope agents (PT in this case) will support their reasons against Pinna because this is simply UNACCEPTABLE. Were are not talking about random russian bookies like 1xbet or marathonbet. Pinnacle shame on you!!!

campeones wrote:

There is no-one to blame but Pinnacle. Instead of correcting their lines, they discourage players by limiting their accounts and delaying payments.

This is the only truth, unfortunately pinnacle is only one to blame here, their lines are not sharp and instead of learning from their mistakes they punnish smart bettors like every other soft book out there.

Once again thank you all for nice words and helping me in this case.

Nice to see this resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

There are ways to beat Pinnacle or at least manipulate their lines, and even the old Pinnacle would quickly lock accounts if they suspected that.

Example: Years ago before I understood that if the risk/win amount limit on a line was 100, and the odds 1.1 you could bet £1000 to win £100, I remember sending in £100 after £100 bet, only for the account to be locked for 3 weeks and they asking me for a detailed explanation of my betting intention.  After they finally realised I wasn't up to no good, they unlocked it.

Im guessing something like that has happened here, but they now want to refuse any more business from the OP, which is a little bit harder via agents hence Pinnacle made it very clear to PT they must not offer him an account.

dealer wins wrote: Nice to see this resolved to everyone's satisfaction.

There are ways to beat Pinnacle or at least manipulate their lines, and even the old Pinnacle would quickly lock accounts if they suspected that.

Example: Years ago before I understood that if the risk/win amount limit on a line was 100, and the odds 1.1 you could bet £1000 to win £100, I remember sending in £100 after £100 bet, only for the account to be locked for 3 weeks and they asking me for a detailed explanation of my betting intention.  After they finally realised I wasn't up to no good, they unlocked it.

Im guessing something like that has happened here, but they now want to refuse any more business from the OP, which is a little bit harder via agents hence Pinnacle made it very clear to PT they must not offer him an account.

Why is it hard to you to accept that someone can beat pinni in fair game?
This is second time you make assumptions that i did something shady or manipulate lines in any way, if this was the case PT and pinni will come out with proofs and i would not get my money.
Please check my bets that i put in attachment and see closing odds and you ll see that i just took closing odds( in meantime i never bet or tried to affect on odds before so i have advantage on closing odds) at pinnacle and beat them fair and squaire.

I will also tell you that pinnacle dont understand some basic things regarding tennis odds and what factors they should take, even bet365 get it after some time and fix some things but pinni still didnt do it, and thing is that i am not fighting pinni here, their opening lines are somethimes a such big joke,they made good model to make people and money coming in to shape their final odds but my models are based on few factors not only public opinions and money put on some matchs/lines.
People should understand that statistic is going to beat money in long term and that is it.