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Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

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What will you vote in the Greek referendum?

Poll runs till Wed Jan 05, 2061 9:49 pm

YES
8
40%
NO
12
60%
 
Total votes: 20
GrayFox
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:11 am

vinciguerra wrote: i think you missed my point.  the greek voted NO to this rescue package. 

these were all facts. let's get to my opinion. I think referendums are extremely ridiculous. People will always vote for their own short-term interest, and are most of the time too stupid to really understand what that interest really is as they're heaviliy influenced by the BS they read. Rule the world by referendum and you would have mass world wars in a few years;  This whole referendum-thing has been extremely bad for Europe and I believe hope for a "better deal" are ridiculous. There's no political will to offer one anywhere.  It's very sad as things will continue to slide downwards and everybody will lose.
I can agree in the first part of your comment except that we cant agree that this package was a rescue one.

So any government should ALWAYS make their decisions without asking people is that correct? Do you know how this is called?
No any primeminister has not the right to choose on his own if he will accept a shitty package or to go for a Grexit.
these are decisions people have to make & not a single man.

If you think referendums are ridiculous then i guess you should not talk for democracy.
That is all about. they started getting afraid that this referendum thing will happen to other countries too & then we ll all understand that the EU with the specific values has failed & is starting to create dept colonies everywhere.
So all this "few" & their careers that they are proving every day their personal interests should f@ck of & hopefully will start again creating an EU everyone is dreaming of & not just the few.
They should create an investigation team for every of this few guys we are talking about & their wills.

Im not a person who says Greeks were or are fine, thats  something that needs not much of an explanation.

The whole referendum has been bad for Europe and everyone.
They should think of this before sending not viable shitty  "rescue" packages & excepting to sing it in 2 days destroying even tourism that is the last thing that Greece has.
In the next agreement they will add higher taxes for the sun we have & for the oxygen we breathe.
vinciguerra
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:23 am

GrayFox wrote: So any government should ALWAYS make their decisions without asking people is that correct? Do you know how this is called?
yes. democracy by proxy.  you vote for someone to represent you in parliament and you trust his or her judgement. knowledge and experience. if you don't like what someone did, next time you vote for someone else.

GrayFox wrote: they started getting afraid that this referendum thing will happen to other countries too & then we ll all understand that the EU with the specific values has failed & is starting to create dept colonies everywhere.
really? if this referendum thing will happen in other countries there will be no more negotiations, no more packages, and a definite Grexit. and an end to Europe, not a new beginning. no hope, just destruction.
GrayFox wrote: again creating an EU everyone is dreaming of & not just the few.
it's still not clear to me what kind of EU you are dreaming off to be honest.  and are you sure really everyone wants "your" Europe?
GrayFox
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Mon Jul 06, 2015 12:04 pm

vinciguerra wrote: yes. democracy by proxy.  you vote for someone to represent you in parliament and you trust his or her judgement. knowledge and experience. if you don't like what someone did, next time you vote for someone else.
Thats what was happening before from previous governments & you see now where Greece is.
For decisions that will not just define the first 1-2 years but the future of the whole country & its generations , people have to decide & not a single man.
At least if people would choose a Grexit or Yes to this "rescue" package then noone can blame others.
vinciguerra wrote: really? if this referendum thing will happen in other countries there will be no more negotiations, no more packages, and a definite Grexit. and an end to Europe, not a new beginning. no hope, just destruction.
I meant referendums to other countries about their self & about accepting or no these "rescue" packages that E.C.B, IMF, E.C, etc will offer to them. not about Greece.
vinciguerra wrote: it's still not clear to me what kind of EU you are dreaming off to be honest.  and are you sure really everyone wants "your" Europe?
A EU that when a program that is running fails, solidarity & viable rescue packages & negotiations will be in the table for every country & not few wankers to conquer all Europe & deciding for their personal interests& creating dept colonies everywhere.
E.C.B agreed that this "rescue" packages are not viable so?! but YES Greece has to sing it for their best.
No as it seems not everyone want this kind of Europe.
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Mon Jul 06, 2015 1:09 pm

Some people yesterday (around 50-55% of the voters) voted, thinking that the question is if they want more taxes or not (more austerity or not if you prefer, it's the same). The vast majority of them were voters of "NO".

Others (around 40-45% of the voters) voted thinking that the question is if they want a Grexit or a shitty package as GrayFox describes. The vast majority of them were voters of "YES" (indicating that they prefer the shitty package than the Grexit).

Conclusion: If the question was clearly do you prefer Grexit or a shitty package, the results would be completely different than yesterday's referendum. "Yes" to a shitty package would prevail by at least 65%. That's the "brutal" question Arbusers refers to about a next possible referendum. Though I believe there won't be a next referendum rather national elections really soon. 
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Mon Jul 06, 2015 4:42 pm

i totally agree.
& probably the 65% you are referring will be more.
I dont think will be another referendum for now as they already know that nobody wants a Grexit.
At this case they will probably sign a shitty package soon as its a better solution than a Grexit. There is also the option that E.C.B, IMF, E.C will not want any more negotiations with the Greeks& then an unknown story starts..
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Mon Jul 06, 2015 7:57 pm

GrayFox wrote: There is also the option that E.C.B, IMF, E.C will not want any more negotiations with the Greeks& then an unknown story starts..
and in that (imo not so unlikely) case, wasn't the referendum in fact a "Yes/No" to a Grexit?
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Mon Jul 06, 2015 10:05 pm

vinciguerra wrote:
GrayFox wrote: There is also the option that E.C.B, IMF, E.C will not want any more negotiations with the Greeks& then an unknown story starts..
and in that (imo not so unlikely) case, wasn't the referendum in fact a "Yes/No" to a Grexit?


...or a NO could be seen as a threat to a Grexit, except that Europe doesn't seem to care that much anymore. A default could be easier than having to admit they made mistakes and offer further debt concessions to Greece. This would set a precedent for others to follow. It's easier to blame Greeks that they didn't implement the plan properly.

Greece hasn't been given much a free lunch though. A large part of its debt was held by German and French Banks when the crisis emerged. Had Greece defaulted then Germany and France would have to bailout their banks so their citizens would have to to pay the bill.
Since then most of the debt has been transferred from private to public hands but Greece hasn't received much of an additional help. It's mostly debt being recycled. Of course a default or a debt restructuring would affect the citizens of other EU states now. Is that unfair though? If their democratically elected governments got involved in an unsustainable plan for Greece they are also accountable.
The current Greek Government has complicated things even further and it's not quite clear what they want. Their plan also contains many tax hikes.
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Mon Jul 06, 2015 11:20 pm

vinciguerra wrote: and in that (imo not so unlikely) case, wasn't the referendum in fact a "Yes/No" to a Grexit?
The government doesnt want a Grexit. People dont want a Grexit. But now it may happen as i said if Europe will not want to negotiate anymore with the Greeks & will refuse even a good deal that will be a "bad" rescue package for Greeks.
qbet wrote: The current Greek Government has complicated things even further and it's not quite clear what they want. Their plan also contains many tax hikes.
In my eyes they know what they want but they underestimated E.C.B, IMF, E.C and others & they thought that it will be much easier to get a good deal.
They know that people dont want a Grexit so they will try for even a bad deal now.
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:10 am

GrayFox wrote: .In my eyes they know what they want but they underestimated E.C.B, IMF, E.C and others & they thought that it will be much easier to get a good deal.
They know that people dont want a Grexit so they will try for even a bad deal now.
if so, then what was the point of the referendum in the first place?  it ticked everybody off outside of Greece,  and besides, the Greek people say No, and then the government does a "bad" deal anyway??  That doesn't make that much sense to me. we will see..
GrayFox
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:12 am

vinciguerra wrote: if so, then what was the point of the referendum in the first place?  it ticked everybody off outside of Greece,  and besides, the Greek people say No, and then the government does a "bad" deal anyway??  That doesn't make that much sense to me. we will see..
I explained you the point of the referendum already.
For decisions that will not just define the first 1-2 years but the future of the whole country & its generations , people have to decide & not a single man.

I explained the NO what was for too.
If it was for staying or no in the Europe the results would be YES.
Look by yourself, before the referendum results European leaders where shouting that the NO means Greeks dont want to be EU & now they/we still negotiate & they wait for a Greek proposal for a solution.
The few leaders we were talking about & now as it seems there are more than few dont want a solution anyway thats why they were blackmailing that the NO is the end of the story from media & everywhere.
All these should go on trial for trying to affect a whole nation`s decision & a whole nation`s future.

They will probably make a "bad" deal anyway as the creditors show that they dont care for a Grexit anymore & Greeks thought they will change their mind last minute.

if its true that creditors asked for the resignation of the minister of finance that shows something too. A mistake from the Greek primenister to ask for his resignation IMO. But probably he dont want more problems last minute.
Its like Greeks asking for a resignation of the German minister of finance.
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Tue Jul 07, 2015 11:30 am

GrayFox wrote:
vinciguerra wrote: if so, then what was the point of the referendum in the first place?  it ticked everybody off outside of Greece,  and besides, the Greek people say No, and then the government does a "bad" deal anyway??  That doesn't make that much sense to me. we will see..
I explained you the point of the referendum already.
For decisions that will not just define the first 1-2 years but the future of the whole country & its generations , people have to decide & not a single man.
yes, you did.  you believed the decision was too big for one man to make.  then you go on saying, even though a majority voted no, you expect tsipras to still take the "bad" deal.  to be honest, if i were a greek citizen i'd feel pretty ridiculous when someones asks for my opinion, a majority says NO, and then that one person goes behind my back and does it anyway because the situation changed a bit (imo, the situation didn't change, tsipras was false in the way he described it).
GrayFox wrote: They will probably make a "bad" deal anyway as the creditors show that they dont care for a Grexit anymore & Greeks thought they will change their mind last minute.
Don't you think the assumption that a better deal would be possible after a "NO" was very naive? I could have told them the creditors don't really care anymore and there's no significantly better deal to be made, I just don't understand the strategy, especially from someone with such an important position in politics. The referendum made everybody outside of Greece upset; when someone is upset, is he really going to give you a much better deal one week later?

Anyway, I'm not criticizing you :)  I just feel bad about how this is all imploding, when it could have been so easily fixed a long time ago.
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:16 pm

It was his job actually to make difficult decisions and not to pass them to the people. 
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:25 pm

The funny part is that the arbusers pool mirror the official results... ;)

everyone can draw his own conclusions out of it
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Tue Jul 07, 2015 8:31 pm

f164 wrote: The funny part is that the arbusers pool mirror the official results... ;)

everyone can draw his own conclusions out of it
That is a correct observation.
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Re: Vote YES or NO in the Greek referendum

Tue Jul 07, 2015 10:21 pm

qbet wrote: It was his job actually to make difficult decisions and not to pass them to the people.
If you are Greek & you think this way then you agree that the previous ones did a great job deciding this great future for Greece that leads nowhere.
Or you are one of those who is blaming a 5 months government that destroyed Greece?
As you agree that this kind of decisions should be made by them then you agree to this misery that many people are living every day & you agree to the thousand suicides of desperate people that happened the last years.

I read your posts. You are a good arber. But i guess you cant count people`s misery by any measure.

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