Arbusers

susie qua wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 10:33 pm

jagas wrote: ↑

Fri Feb 25, 2022 12:47 pm

I miss Donald Trump also but i have been searching the reason for this Russia and Ukraine struggle all over the internet and i cannot even find the reason for it.

Is it a secret? why is Putin upset or what is Ukraine doing or not doing

the answers you seek are in the transcripts of Putins speeches over the last few days, it's actually a very interesting read of his interpretation of the last 80 years since WW2. Obviously the Western media don't mention the 'Empire of lies' and Iraq, Libya etc

So how you "interpret" his words and his reasons of war and tell me about your "interpretation" of europe history.

Geopolitics is so hard to understand.
There are economic interests as well. Like allways.
Russian gas go to Europe via two countries: Belarus and Ukraine. US gas is much more expensive. They have to cool it, put in a ship, and after warm it again.
The East of Ukraine is in fact a part of Russia. Russia pays the pensions and salaries of the people there.
About Putin speech. We all can rewrite the history, and ask for some countries. In Latin America, they all speak Spanish, so maybe we should go with our army to conquer Some countries there. I don't care about where the borders are. I care about the people, and I hate who press the red button of the war, and push entire families to an uncertain future. Every country can ask for parts of the map. But, war is not an option for that.
Of course NATO is not an example for nothing. I don't justify the war in Irak, Afghanistan, or Syria. And the same for Ukraine.
I don't talk about NATO. Ukraine people have to solve his own problems by themselves.

Putin is going to sit down NATO to negotiate, whether they like it or not. It is clear that he won't accept NATO approaching one single milimeter more to Russian borders, and seems determined to accept all the consequences of this decision. Putin will have no problem putting nuclear warheads on NATO's borders.
You expand to the East, we will expand to the West.... With nuclear weapons aimed directly at European cities, I think we'll get the message perfectly. This man plays his cards hard. Let's see what happen...

Each day looks worse than before.
If I have to bet i bet for Putin.

He wants US missils outside from Europe, and he wants to demostrate the world that US is not the boss anymore, and i think that he will win.
What EU will do if Putin put dozens of warheads in the west border of Ukraine and asks for a mutual demilitarization?

CharlieSheen99 wrote: ↑

Tue Mar 01, 2022 4:01 pm

What EU will do if Putin put dozens of warheads in the west border of Ukraine and asks for a mutual demilitarization?

There are already nuclear warheads in Kaliningrad. They didn't bring demilitarisation.

I think that soon or later Russia will attack the arm shipments so close to Polish borders, or even inside Poland. The question is what will happen after that. I heard president Trump saying that we are already in the 3WW. If you listen to people at the power in Moscow, or even Russian social media and TV shows, everyone is talking about the possibility of a nuclear war. They even put on TV how a nuclear missil can destroy Berlin, Paris and London.
One thing i have more than clear. If one single centimeter of Russia is attacked by NATO missils, or invaded by NATO soldiers, Russia will use low power nuclear weapons inmediatly. Another thing more than clear. Putin and his government will not back down.

What do you think guys? I specially want to hear the opinion of Russian people here.

Thank you.

Nuclear weapon? IF it works Nucelar weapon must be properly maintaned over years, these Russian "professionals" in charge stole huge part of the money which suppose to be spent for army, so I wouldnt be surprised if their nuclear weapon wont work at all. And Im sure you know pushing the button is not up to one person. More than that Im sure you realize that IF they push the button, Russia is wiped off the map, will be smashed by USA and NATO immediately (as they know if russians push the button they may do it again), they want to live their lives as they do now and Im more than sure they dont want to see their residences there wiped of the map, all they can do is thretening, they wont do anything. They cant deal with Ukraine for a month, yeah sure they got any power left...

If this continues like this, Russia will use most powerful bombs since 1945. This doesn't means destroy a city, it could be a small territory. Anyway, i think that NATO should accept Russia's demands on the approach to their borders.
I think that EU countries should listen more to what Russian leaders say. If a minister of a country says that a nuclear war is possible, we should listen to him, and not joke about his words. Putin is absolutely clear about what he wants, and he will not stop. His demands about NATO expansion are so easy to accept, and to be honest, are fair. It's not fair to have missils of your enemy all around you. We don't lose nothing, and we can redirect this conflict now in a positive path.
EU position is: We are 40 countries and you are alone, so we will put our missils whatever we want. This is not fair. In this case, Russia has the reason.
We, have now a lot of confidence between us. We don't consider enemies other countries in Europe, but not all the world is like this, and even we, as Europeans had fear between us in the past. Russia and US were enemies for a long time, and they don't have confidence between them.
What felt Ukraine when Russia surrounded them during 2021? of course...., fear.
What felt Russia when US surrounded them? The same. You cannot encircled other country like this.
"We have only a defensive Shield" This is not truth. The defensive shield is made up of missils. This is a weapon that can be used to defense and to attack as well.
This doesn't means accept Russian propaganda. If Ukraine has a conflict in Donnbas is their conflict. You cannot invade a country and destroy all the cities because of that. But we should discriminate the parts of the speech where they are right than the others where they don't. And if someone think that a soreveign country can do whatever they want with their alliances. The answer is clearly NO. For example Finland. They cannot put US missils within 50km of St.Petersbourg. It's simple like that.

I find the Russian rhetorics as complete BS at all levels.
Let me take out some of the Russian arguments.

1. NATO is surrounding Russia. I am attaching a picture that shows with red lines the common NATO-Russian borders. Reality shows that NATO is NOT surrounding Russia.
2. Ukraine is a Nazi state. You have to give me a brake here. How is it possible that a Nazi state has a Jew president? A president that lost his grand father in the holocaust of WW2 by real German Nazis.

3. We will use a nuclear weapon, so surrender now. Russia is not the only one with nuclear weapons, and when threatening others with a nuclear strike, you have to be ready to receive one too. Recently I watched on Russian TV a silly argument they can hit London and Paris in 203 seconds. London and Paris too can hit Moscow at the same time, and guess what... French and English weapons do work.

I am getting really tired with all the silly Russian propaganda and I find it very discouraging that some people swallow it that easy.

Arbusers this is not a forum about politics and you should be neutral not taking position, not to mention hosting these threads about the war. You will pay a price and I wonder when the trolls and the DDOS will stack you again.

I totally agree with the (2) and (3).

About the (1), why should NATO continues approaching to their borders. Pacts must be fulfilled. If they agreed to don't go to the East, why NATO do that? Cold war finished, and URSS recognized that they lost. Why the US is still putting more and more weapons, and arms, and missils in Europe?
About the map. The majority of the people in Russia lives in the west part, and close to Europe, so they can consider that we are so close.

The last time that the west, approached to their borders, they lost 30 million people, so maybe Russian people have a different view of what means approaching to them.
Anyway, we don't lose nothing to accept this kind of requirement, and put it in the negotiations to finish the war. And to stop this climbing. If not, we all suffer the consequences.

CharlieSheen99 wrote: ↑

Sun May 01, 2022 2:52 pm

I totally agree with the (2) and (3).

About the (1), why should NATO continues approaching to their borders. Pacts must be fulfilled. If they agreed to don't go to the East, why NATO do that? Cold war finished, and URSS recognized that they lost. Why the US is still putting more and more weapons, and arms, and missils in Europe?
About the map. The majority of the people in Russia lives in the west part, and close to Europe, so they can consider that we are so close.

The last time that the west, approached to their borders, they lost 30 million people, so maybe Russian people have a different view of what means approaching to them.
Anyway, we don't lose nothing to accept this kind of requirement, and put it in the negotiations to finish the war. And to stop this climbing. If not, we all suffer the consequences.

Every nation has the right to self determination. If a nation wants to be a member of any organisation (NATO, EU, whatever) then it is not Russia's or anyone else's job to allow or not to allow.

Who/when/how agreed not to go to the East? This is another Russian propaganda BS.

Before February the 24th, the US did not put more weapons, arms and missiles in Europe. Quite the contrary, all US efforts were focusing in the far east with China and N. Korea being the centre of gravity. After the invasion to Ukraine, the US and many other NATO members decided to deploy all these in Europe. It was Russia that forced this deployment.

The definition of ''approach'' is not giving any right to any nation to wreck and attack other nations. What if the West decides that Russia is too close to the West? Will that be a justification to launch a war to Russia?

arbusers wrote: ↑

Mon May 02, 2022 7:44 am

CharlieSheen99 wrote: ↑

Sun May 01, 2022 2:52 pm

I totally agree with the (2) and (3).

About the (1), why should NATO continues approaching to their borders. Pacts must be fulfilled. If they agreed to don't go to the East, why NATO do that? Cold war finished, and URSS recognized that they lost. Why the US is still putting more and more weapons, and arms, and missils in Europe?
About the map. The majority of the people in Russia lives in the west part, and close to Europe, so they can consider that we are so close.

The last time that the west, approached to their borders, they lost 30 million people, so maybe Russian people have a different view of what means approaching to them.
Anyway, we don't lose nothing to accept this kind of requirement, and put it in the negotiations to finish the war. And to stop this climbing. If not, we all suffer the consequences.

Every nation has the right to self determination. If a nation wants to be a member of any organisation (NATO, EU, whatever) then it is not Russia's or anyone else's job to allow or not to allow.

Who/when/how agreed not to go to the East? This is another Russian propaganda BS.

Before February the 24th, the US did not put more weapons, arms and missiles in Europe. Quite the contrary, all US efforts were focusing in the far east with China and N. Korea being the centre of gravity. After the invasion to Ukraine, the US and many other NATO members decided to deploy all these in Europe. It was Russia that forced this deployment.

The definition of ''approach'' is not giving any right to any nation to wreck and attack other nations. What if the West decides that Russia is too close to the West? Will that be a justification to launch a war to Russia?

I will never justify the war in Ukraine. About going to the East, i don't know if this is propaganda or not. Anyway, they say that they don't want US missils close to their borders. Everyone can understand the fear that US inspires to others, because of the large list of invasions that they have in their back. Not us, of course, because we are allies. But ask Russians, chinese, south americans, middle east people...
About Russia, they have nuclear power. It's simple like that. In my opinion we don't lose nothing if we put this demand of "Russian security" in the negotiations table to finish the war. This is the most important thing. Stop the war.
About self-determination, yes and no. US has a lot of enemies in the world, so, if you accept to have US troops, or missils, or attack systems, in your country you accept that US enemies will put your country in the map.
You can tell me that Russia is threatening us. In the recent years a lot of countries were threatening in the same way by the US. This doesn't allow Russia to do the same, of course, but this is the dynamic of power.... And yes, most of the excuses of Putin to invade Ukraine, are just pure excuses.
Now, Real Politics; what solution do you have to resolve this conflict? Because what EU is doing right now is much more than pure BS, we are just lengthening the war, and Ukraine will be a failed state, and a battlefield for years.

In my opinion there are only two scenarios:
1) NATO enter in the war.
2) Accept some Russian demands, and try to force a new peace agreement for a long time, with the most benefits possible for us.

EU chose the WORST and COWARD position. We give Ukraine weapons, and they put the blood. At the same time, we buy the gas, and, with this money, Russia buy weapons as well.... I don't like this kind of hypocrisy. We are lengthening the war, giving both countries what they need to fight. This can be the new Syria, with everyone involved, so we have to be very careful with our decisions.
President Putin said that Russia, will attack arms shipments. He was so clear. When this happens, What EU will do? Soon or later we will need to choose one the two options. So it's better to decide now than later. And it's better to decide now, and not after any kind of tragic event.
If i have to bet, i bet for Russia to throw a small nuclear weapon in the coming months to show NATO the consequences of our contemplation. Russia will force us to decide between the only two possible scenarios that we have.

The 9th of May Moscow parade is an important landmark for the Russian cult.
He was supposed to announce the end of the special operation, but the maximum he can do is announce the take over of Azovstal in Mariupol. Wow.

Finland will be a part of NATO. A big mistake in my opinion.
Before this year ends, the third nuclear weapon in history will be thrown.
Vladimir Putin and his collaborators will be tried as war criminals in the next few years; so.....they will not leave power voluntarily and they cannot lost the elections, because they will be prosecuted. Perhaps we can again see an assault on the winter palace in the coming months or years.
I support the words of President Macron about the end of this conflict. We must be compassionate and generous, and not load this barbarism on the shoulders of the Russian people.