Arbusers

treblepop wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:33 am

i see lots of people say this, why will you have a big problem for not declaring income which by law you do not have to declare?

there are some countries (such as Canada) where the tax law says if you conduct you're gambling with a 'business like' (stupidly ambiguous) manner than you must pay tax.

As far as i can see places like UK and Austria both clearly have no interest in taxing gambling even from 'professionals'

I welcome any evidence you have to the contrary.

this is a misconception and you gave the answer yourself: it is basically the same as you described it in Canada, "professional intent" is the key. If you walk once a year into a casino in Vienna and you win like a million, this is not taxable. But if you play professional month after month after month with the intent to make it your main source of income, it`s a whole other story.

My evidence is my own Deloitte-fabricated tax structure and all the headache and years-long legal dispute and even battle from friends and colleagues here in Austria. Like I said, it all depends on your structure and risk appetite. Just consult a (good, experienced) tax adviser.

@unertl

your case seems interesting, how did you get in contact with tax authorities in first place. im very interested in learning more about your case.

the austrians i know, handle it more like in a dont ask - dont tell manner. backed up by the law basiacally saying its tax free. even if tax authorities asks question, how can they proove its your main income and not luck anyways,. how will they handle a case where a pro punter suddenly is not winning player anymore?

swissarbs wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 02, 2023 10:55 am

I do know a lot of Austrians, who are betting from semi to a full professionell level. Never heard any of them having trouble not declaring their juristically not existing income. Same story in germany, apart from the taxes they take directly from the operators.

...and again: it all depends on the size of your operation and if you want to avoid headache or not. "Berufsspieler" (german for professionals) are gonna be taxed. Of course this is not often the case as not too many profitable players are around.

As I unterstand it, this is a forum for professionals, so I gave a professional answer for a professional structure.

@swissarbs

the problem is that it is a misconception that gambling winnings are tax free. It is only tax free as a leisure activity, everything that goes further and is with "professional intent" is taxable.

The setup was always a large structure with employees and a lot of money involved so we had to be as upfront as possibly to avoid any bad surprises.

I can see people in this thread are discussing about tax. Instead of withdrawing bigger amounts why You just simply don't place arb combining your local bookie (shop) and move all profit to online bookie, so if You win in bet placed in shop, viola You have cash and if bet placed online, viola, You've just made (decent) profit.

Local bookie (shop) - A
Online bookie - B

For example:
Odd 1 - 2.1 (A)
Odd 2 - 2.1 (B)

Instead placing arb in a way where is 5% guaranteed with these odds
A - 50% (+5%)
B - 50% (+5%)

Place bets to get 10% on online one or "withdraw money" in shop
A - 47.62% (0% but You have cash)
B - 52.38% (+10%)

ok, let me be frank: If you gonna play with a couple of thousand euros, nobody is gonna be bothering you here in Austria. But this is not what I have in mind if I think about the term "professional".

and what was the end result of your dealings with austrian taxman and your tax expert? did they decide you were running a taxable business structure?

As swissarb says it would be good if you could give a little more detail without being too specific about your particular circumstances.

From speaking to others in the UK (i guess similar laws as Austria in this regard) there are people turning over millions a year with consistent profits and third parties placing bets for them in shops and online and always the response from UK taxman is they are not interested.

In case where you wish to offer such things as tipping services, white label type products or odds compilation then this is now a business structure.

this is getting a bit silly/out of hand. I was simply responding to a guy who wanted to know a couple of things about Austria.

I have an enterprise here with employees (IT-guys, mathematicians and so on) and of course I am taxed, why/how wouldn`t I? Sure, it is well optimized but regardless I have to pay something.

Other guys might do something else, as I was previously stating: it depends on size and appetite for risk. To me it is just puzzling how anybody would think that he could run an "enterprise-like" system, with employees, potentially making millions and goes on and on for years without the tax man knocking on the door? Unfortunately this is not how the real world works. If this is some sort of small side hustle, by any means, as I mentioned: a couple of thousand euros is not interesting to the government and you can always argue that "gambling as a leisure activity so it is tax free".

@unertl

thank you for explaining your situation. i have no doubts that in your situation legal consultation is a must.

i think the term "professionell" can mean a lot here. for me it starts from someone earning a serious side income in a professionell minded way up the ladder to someone like you having an enterprise. as you put it, everybody needs to figure at which point in this he/she should consider legal help.

by the way, any chance you are from linz?

unertl wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:33 pm

this is getting a bit silly/out of hand. I was simply responding to a guy who wanted to know a couple of things about Austria.

I have an enterprise here with employees (IT-guys, mathematicians and so on) and of course I am taxed, why/how wouldn`t I? Sure, it is well optimized but regardless I have to pay something. ...

And i thank you , interesting thread given how hard it all got after regulations .

I do pretend to move high figures at some point if everything goes as it was for me back in the golden .com days ... 2003-2012... ( i started around that year ..sure other people did it earlier tough web was not fully on mid 90's so i would not be able to tell.

And apart from big or small quantity ...some dude " foreigner" opening new account might be even more monitored ... i'd say.

Regarding arbing ...and going to street shops ...
Well street shops give me the creeps ...honestly...

And why lose all time and energy ...that comes maybe from someone very selective with huge amounts - big issue on street- .

And im not even into thay .. surely trade ..

Any serious bettor worth name greens out even cuts loses and moves on ...but arbing was never my thing ....sorry to say this given forum's name ..


Cheers.

swissarbs wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:53 pm

@unertl

thank you for explaining your situation. i have no doubts that in your situation legal consultation is a must.

i think the term "professionell" can mean a lot here. for me it starts from someone earning a serious side income in a professionell minded way up the ladder to someone like you having an enterprise. as you put it, everybody needs to figure at which point in this he/she should consider legal help.

by the way, any chance you are from linz?

Sure, no problems.

In my opinion it is pretty simple: Austria is quite expensive to live in, especially the nice areas like Vienna, Salzburg or even Innsbruck. So for me, the term "professional" means that you can afford to live there comfortably, whatever profession it is that you do. So back to gambling: To reach that goal "living comfortably in Austria" you need a pretty good turnover, of course depending on what it is you actually do. With this high turnover and monthly winnings to support living there I am sure that you should see a tax adviser, because this is a dark, dark grey area.

No, I am not from Linz, who do you have in mind?

candido3q24 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:21 pm

unertl wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:33 pm

this is getting a bit silly/out of hand. I was simply responding to a guy who wanted to know a couple of things about Austria.

I have an enterprise here with employees (IT-guys, mathematicians and so on) and of course I am taxed, why/how wouldn`t I? Sure, it is well optimized but regardless I have to pay something. ...

And i thank you , interesting thread given how hard it all got after regulations .

I do pretend to move high figures at some point if everything goes as it was for me back in the golden .com days ... 2003-2012... ( i started around that year ..sure other people did it earlier tough web was not fully on mid 90's so i would not be able to tell.

And apart from big or small quantity ...some dude " foreigner" opening new account might be even more monitored ... i'd say.

Regarding arbing ...and going to street shops ...
Well street shops give me the creeps ...honestly...

And why lose all time and energy ...that comes maybe from someone very selective with huge amounts - big issue on street- .

And im not even into thay .. surely trade ..

Any serious bettor worth name greens out even cuts loses and moves on ...but arbing was never my thing ....sorry to say this given forum's name ..


Cheers.

you set yourself a tough challenge.....candido3q24......returning to betting in these dark....dark times.

in europe all wallets are dead no go zones..........as you say the regulation has killed nearly all avenues in this continent.........only options left are some golden countries which will soon die and the golden banks in said countries which allow large gambling transactions for now

good luck in come back...

Believe me i know about how dark this days for online betting are at hart ...

,,,,,,its even hard to gather proper and trustable info regarding venues where one can settle....

i've been actually checking poker forums couse they seem to be bigger and with more info .... all those poker online dudes had no probs to move around when everything collapsed ...

back in 12' everybody was talking about malta ... so now it seems they have 30% taxes on punters wich solely income comes from betting ....

now one may try to go to unregulated - for now - areas like southamerica yet acquiring residency might be not so easy and those are places where you really want to keep low profile ... not sure it shall be easy if you move big quantities ... of course one may just move there and use online wallets like those so easy to handle back skrill neteller etc ...
... probably they do not ask for residency just proper adress and KYC passes ...
and when you want to move home the $ ... what to do ... crist .. i guess its just a matter of trial and error ...

you mention UK ..thats one of the places they'll figure it out and will never ever touch punters couse its part of their culture along economic liberalism ...
actually sports betting can be very much alike stock market trading ... its just gov and sharks that wanted cut of the pie that took measures back in 2010-2015 ... bulsheet...

id consider cert UK ...not sure with brexit is easy to settle there .. certainly big bucks EU citizens may have it easier (not saying its my case ) ....

i honestly do not care if if i have to pay tax as long as its not huge % ...
perhaps way to go is crypto wich i have zero knowledge of ...from my understanding most sites involved in this ask you kyc and when you earth it to local currency you doi need a bank to do so .... but sure theere are ways crist one does not needs a tax person but a mafiosi financial adviser CRIST SHAKES FORK OFF !!....

cheers

treblepop wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 03, 2023 11:55 am

candido3q24 wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:21 pm

unertl wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 02, 2023 1:33 pm

this is getting a bit silly/out of hand. I was simply responding to a guy who wanted to know a couple of things about Austria.

I have an enterprise here with employees (IT-guys, mathematicians and so on) and of course I am taxed, why/how wouldn`t I? Sure, it is well optimized but regardless I have to pay something. ...

And i thank you , interesting thread given how hard it all got after regulations .

I do pretend to move high figures at some point if everything goes as it was for me back in the golden .com days ... 2003-2012... ( i started around that year ..sure other people did it earlier tough web was not fully on mid 90's so i would not be able to tell.

And apart from big or small quantity ...some dude " foreigner" opening new account might be even more monitored ... i'd say.

Regarding arbing ...and going to street shops ...
Well street shops give me the creeps ...honestly...

And why lose all time and energy ...that comes maybe from someone very selective with huge amounts - big issue on street- .

And im not even into thay .. surely trade ..

Any serious bettor worth name greens out even cuts loses and moves on ...but arbing was never my thing ....sorry to say this given forum's name ..


Cheers.

you set yourself a tough challenge.....candido3q24......returning to betting in these dark....dark times.

in europe all wallets are dead no go zones..........as you say the regulation has killed nearly all avenues in this continent.........only options left are some golden countries which will soon die and the golden banks in said countries which allow large gambling transactions for now

good luck in come back...

Interesting 3d, I jump on the train. Which are these golden banks you are talking about? thanks

Every case is different not only from one country to another but also within the same country. Taxation became an... algorithm really as there are regulations upon regulations, asterisks upon asterisks and exceptions upon exceptions. Yes, a 2k profit might pass undetectable (for now) in some countries, but any serious business will require a tax plan hand by hand with the operation plan.

When I started my betting business back in 2003, my available time was dedicated to real money making processes 100%. As years were passing by, I had to spend more time in anything but money making processes. Fast forward to today, 50% of my time is dedicated on how to be legal and compliant and protect my self, this forum and my business from any kind of vultures and bad actors (usually wearing very expensive suites but not always), and only the other 50% goes to pure business. I m sure in the next years the ratio will change against pure business.

Some times I am jealous of our South American members and the ease they make millions today. However, having seen the same story again and again, I know the magic hand will stop them very soon. Everybody wants money and the stronger guys in the room will get it. Some times these guys are governments, some times they are cronies, and only some very rare times they are smart bettors, not because they are strong, but because they are cunning.

BTW, I enjoy very much this kind of discussions. Thank you all guys.