And btw you missed the main point I was stating earlier. BTC doesn't make sense as a long term investment because it is not backed by anything. Doing value betting you can analyze performance of teams. Doing value investing you can analyze financial performance of companies. Investing in BTC you have to analyze and predict behavior of thousands if not millions of traders and general population as well as institutions, good luck with that...
So yeah, it can be useful for criminal and shady activities but that is hardly a good reason to be investing in BTC long term.
Long on BTC
- Alfa1234
- Totally Pro
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Re: Long on BTC
The "only" reason something has value is supply and demand. If gold was not seen as something to hold and as an investment but simply used as a commodity in certain industries, it's price would be 1/1000th of what it is today. BTC has demand and a lowering supply. Perception is everything. A painting by Van Gogh has almost 0 tangible value (a bit of old paint and some canvass) but in the perception of people it's worth millions...because there are so few of them. If Van Gogh had made thousands of original copies of his paintings, they would be pretty worthless as well. BTC is worth just as much as anything else that people want to buy and view as valuable. If the price goes to 0, you still have your bitcoins...just as much as you would have a bit of pretty useless shiny metal in the case of gold and some old dry paint and some canvass as in the case of the Van Gogh painting.
- mrJustice
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Re: Long on BTC
@Alfa1234 you have rather unusual preferences if you can honestly compare gold and art masterpiece with BTC and say it's all the same... I don't know, I would rather keep gold than have useless digits stored on many computers... But I guess everyone is different. Btw in case you would like to trade some gold for some digits just let me know, I will be more than happy to trade
But in case you missed my main point I was talking about value in terms of investing. It is impossible to find reliable reference when investing in BTC because there is nothing to analyze except trying to predict how millions of traders are going to behave. Unlike analyzing sports or stocks. At best investing in BTC is trading but in reality it is close to gambling, you have a feeling it will go up or down and you make a bet... People should consider this too, before deciding if they are indeed prepared to invest in BTC.
And I will emphasize zero-sum game once again because it is the biggest problem with BTC being actual instrument for investing. It always needs both winners and losers. So you will never get value from your investment (because BTC doesn't produce anything), instead money will be transferred from loser to winner and you just have to hope you will be on the winning side.
But in case you missed my main point I was talking about value in terms of investing. It is impossible to find reliable reference when investing in BTC because there is nothing to analyze except trying to predict how millions of traders are going to behave. Unlike analyzing sports or stocks. At best investing in BTC is trading but in reality it is close to gambling, you have a feeling it will go up or down and you make a bet... People should consider this too, before deciding if they are indeed prepared to invest in BTC.
And I will emphasize zero-sum game once again because it is the biggest problem with BTC being actual instrument for investing. It always needs both winners and losers. So you will never get value from your investment (because BTC doesn't produce anything), instead money will be transferred from loser to winner and you just have to hope you will be on the winning side.
Last edited by mrJustice on Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Alfa1234
- Totally Pro
- Karma: 64
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Re: Long on BTC
The only reason you prefer gold and art masterpieces is your perception of them. The only reason they have value is because others think they have value and are willing to pay a price for it. If demand for gold goes to 0 tomorrow, the price will do too. It's the same with bitcoin and anything that has any value. You merely don't like BTC because it's newer and think it's just some digits...but gold is just some shiny metal with no intrinsic value either. I repeat, the only reason something has value is because someone is willing to pay for it. As long as BTC has buyers at a certain price, it has value. If tomorrow I start marketing some grains of sand from my garden and people are willing to pay for it, it may become very valuable as well as after all, supply is limited. It's all perception.mrJustice wrote: @Alfa1234 you have rather unusual preferences if you can honestly compare gold and art masterpiece with BTC and say it's all the same... I don't know, I would rather keep gold than have useless digits stored on many computers... But I guess everyone is different.
- nahcarts
- Gaining experience
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Re: Long on BTC
1. bitcoin HAS value, value of global payment system and store/transfer wealth
2. nothing can serve better to transfer 1 million usd around world than bitcoin , without questions, fast and cheap
3. bitcoin not produce anything and any interest rate, but NOT LOOSING value like fiat currency, instead gaining value because printing more and more fiat money, stocks and bonds produce profit, and inflation eat that profit, thats all with fcking BTC doesn't produce anything
4. it is very plausible that by 10 years from now will be bitcoin best performing asset, and only looser will weak hands who "invest" and sell, or ever not study, not invest in bitcoin at all
2. nothing can serve better to transfer 1 million usd around world than bitcoin , without questions, fast and cheap
3. bitcoin not produce anything and any interest rate, but NOT LOOSING value like fiat currency, instead gaining value because printing more and more fiat money, stocks and bonds produce profit, and inflation eat that profit, thats all with fcking BTC doesn't produce anything
4. it is very plausible that by 10 years from now will be bitcoin best performing asset, and only looser will weak hands who "invest" and sell, or ever not study, not invest in bitcoin at all
- mrJustice
- Has experience
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2. That is a complete nonsense. If your main requirement is for transfer being cheap and fast then such service providers as Revolut will easily outperform bitcoin. Revolut transfers are instant and cost $0.
3. Another nonsense.. stock is not fiat currency... you don't have to sell your stock and exchange it for money just like you don't have to sell your BTC. Just keep your money in stock, that simple.
4. Just your opinion. It is just as plausible for BTC to be worth $0 in 10 years. I don't have a crystal ball to predict future and neither has you. The best investment will always be investing in yourself (education, skills) as well as starting your own business where you are making meaningful contribution to the society by providing goods and services that people need and value and the sky is limit when it comes to your personal business
Re: Long on BTC
1. I shouldn't have used word "value", it has too many interpretations.nahcarts wrote: 1. bitcoin HAS value, value of global payment system and store/transfer wealth
2. nothing can serve better to transfer 1 million usd around world than bitcoin , without questions, fast and cheap
3. bitcoin not produce anything and any interest rate, but NOT LOOSING value like fiat currency, instead gaining value because printing more and more fiat money, stocks and bonds produce profit, and inflation eat that profit, thats all with fcking BTC doesn't produce anything
4. it is very plausible that by 10 years from now will be bitcoin best performing asset, and only looser will weak hands who "invest" and sell, or ever not study, not invest in bitcoin at all
2. That is a complete nonsense. If your main requirement is for transfer being cheap and fast then such service providers as Revolut will easily outperform bitcoin. Revolut transfers are instant and cost $0.
3. Another nonsense.. stock is not fiat currency... you don't have to sell your stock and exchange it for money just like you don't have to sell your BTC. Just keep your money in stock, that simple.
4. Just your opinion. It is just as plausible for BTC to be worth $0 in 10 years. I don't have a crystal ball to predict future and neither has you. The best investment will always be investing in yourself (education, skills) as well as starting your own business where you are making meaningful contribution to the society by providing goods and services that people need and value and the sky is limit when it comes to your personal business
Last edited by mrJustice on Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- mrJustice
- Has experience
- Karma: 5
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Re: Long on BTC
@Alfa1234 I don't want to argue about semantics. I get your point and I agree about supply and demand and perception part. I am not a fan to invest in gold either but if I have to choose between gold and BTC I choose gold because if all goes really bad at least I can make jewelry from it
And I don't dislike Bitcoin because it is newer, being programmer I can very much appreciate blockchain technology behind it. I only wish people were more concerned about how this technology can be used for greater good instead of speculating on the price. Putting aside "value" semantics it is still not backed by anything which can give you reliable reference and thus you are at the mercy of the crowd.
Fortunately, I see different picture with Ethereum. Unlike bitcoin, it was not designed to be merely cryptocurrency but instead is used as utility token which powers dApps (decentralized applications). It is still too early to say if Ethereum will be able to make significant impact on decentralizing economy and the internet but at least they have a worthy mission. My personal opinion is that I give ETH much bigger probability of long term success than BTC. But again, those are complicated matters and none of us has crystal ball to predict future so everyone must make their own mind on what kind of investment makes sense.
And I don't dislike Bitcoin because it is newer, being programmer I can very much appreciate blockchain technology behind it. I only wish people were more concerned about how this technology can be used for greater good instead of speculating on the price. Putting aside "value" semantics it is still not backed by anything which can give you reliable reference and thus you are at the mercy of the crowd.
Fortunately, I see different picture with Ethereum. Unlike bitcoin, it was not designed to be merely cryptocurrency but instead is used as utility token which powers dApps (decentralized applications). It is still too early to say if Ethereum will be able to make significant impact on decentralizing economy and the internet but at least they have a worthy mission. My personal opinion is that I give ETH much bigger probability of long term success than BTC. But again, those are complicated matters and none of us has crystal ball to predict future so everyone must make their own mind on what kind of investment makes sense.
Last edited by mrJustice on Mon Nov 09, 2020 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- nahcarts
- Gaining experience
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3. if you buy 100 shares of TESLA , you will always own 100 shares until company DIES or be REPLACED by better company. Any profit it generate cover inflation. Any sell your shares at any time IS speculation.
Re: Long on BTC
2. You never transfer more than 1000 eur in your life to africa, russia or anywhere 3rd world, how you can know about transfer 1 milion ?. Revolut will ask PROOF OF FUNDS, conversion fee 1,5% and outside SEPA fee and your account will be closed due to suspicious activity !!!mrJustice wrote:1. I shouldn't have used word "value", it has too many interpretations.nahcarts wrote: 1. bitcoin HAS value, value of global payment system and store/transfer wealth
2. nothing can serve better to transfer 1 million usd around world than bitcoin , without questions, fast and cheap
3. bitcoin not produce anything and any interest rate, but NOT LOOSING value like fiat currency, instead gaining value because printing more and more fiat money, stocks and bonds produce profit, and inflation eat that profit, thats all with fcking BTC doesn't produce anything
4. it is very plausible that by 10 years from now will be bitcoin best performing asset, and only looser will weak hands who "invest" and sell, or ever not study, not invest in bitcoin at all
2. That is a complete nonsense. If your main requirement is for transfer being cheap and fast then such service providers as Revolut will easily outperform bitcoin. Revolut transfers are instant and cost $0.
3. Another nonsense.. stock is not fiat currency... you don't have to sell your stock and exchange it for money just like you don't have to sell your BTC. Just keep your money in stock, that simple.
4. Just your opinion. It is just as plausible for BTC to be worth $0 in 10 years. I don't have a crystal ball to predict future and neither has you. The best investment will always be investing in yourself (education, skills) as well as starting your own business where you are making meaningful contribution to the society by providing goods and services that people need and value and the sky is limit when it comes to your personal business
3. if you buy 100 shares of TESLA , you will always own 100 shares until company DIES or be REPLACED by better company. Any profit it generate cover inflation. Any sell your shares at any time IS speculation.
- mrJustice
- Has experience
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Re: Long on BTC
@nahcart
2. if you need to transfer to 3rd world country then it is just as inconvenient for BTC, actually more inconvenient. It is not like you can magically convert your money into BTC and vice versa. You also have to make bank transfer to cryptoexchange, go through KYC, pay outrageous bank conversion fee and outside SEPA fee and only after that you can send BTC and pay sometimes very high mining fee. And if you want your BTC back to fiat you repeat the process in reverse... So yeah, very convenient and cheap...
3. Same can be said about BTC... if you buy X amount of BTC you will always own X amount of BTC... until its price hits $0 or it is replaced by better cryptocurrency... And while you hold your BTC you make no profit at all... And btw in case you didn't know, on average, the return from investing in stocks is quite higher than inflation growth, otherwise no one would be investing in stock market in the first place... So clearly investing in stock has better risk/reward ratio, unless you own crystal ball.
2. if you need to transfer to 3rd world country then it is just as inconvenient for BTC, actually more inconvenient. It is not like you can magically convert your money into BTC and vice versa. You also have to make bank transfer to cryptoexchange, go through KYC, pay outrageous bank conversion fee and outside SEPA fee and only after that you can send BTC and pay sometimes very high mining fee. And if you want your BTC back to fiat you repeat the process in reverse... So yeah, very convenient and cheap...
3. Same can be said about BTC... if you buy X amount of BTC you will always own X amount of BTC... until its price hits $0 or it is replaced by better cryptocurrency... And while you hold your BTC you make no profit at all... And btw in case you didn't know, on average, the return from investing in stocks is quite higher than inflation growth, otherwise no one would be investing in stock market in the first place... So clearly investing in stock has better risk/reward ratio, unless you own crystal ball.
- balls of steele
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- arbusers
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- Wolfie
- Totally Pro
- Karma: 61
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Pros:
-You do not need specialized equipment
-All big exchanges offer it as a service, meaning you dont need to setup it yourself, they do it for you if you hold a balance in their exchange for a small commission.
-You earn coins while doing nothing but just investing.
-Return rates are good for the moment (From 5-7%)
Cons:
-Since it is so simple everyone can do it meaning in long term return rates will fall drastically.
-Since most of people are non specialized you will have to use an exchange, meaning will pay their pool commission and will have coins in a custodial account(Exchange account)
-If you do this basically you are betting at same time that the coin you are staking will go up long term since when you stake you should have a balance of that coin. The higher the balance the higher the reward but at same time the higher the bet in that particular coin.
-There are only a small number of coins that have staking option for the moment
As i see it for now in my personal opinion is very risky to bet on those coins. December 1st meaning tomorrow is supposed that etherium will pass to POS algorithm. Tomorrow would be a good time for all of those who hold etherium in their portofoio to start Staking this coin too and add extra profit to their investment.
Re: Long on BTC
Do you mean staking ? Staking for those who do not know its the equivalent of mining but for cryptos who use POS(Proof of Stake) algorithm. Differently from mining you do not need equipment but just a balance of the crypto where you will stake to earn commissions from transaction validation. There are upsides and downsides to this.cigo wrote: what is your opinion about Stakin crypto?
Pros:
-You do not need specialized equipment
-All big exchanges offer it as a service, meaning you dont need to setup it yourself, they do it for you if you hold a balance in their exchange for a small commission.
-You earn coins while doing nothing but just investing.
-Return rates are good for the moment (From 5-7%)
Cons:
-Since it is so simple everyone can do it meaning in long term return rates will fall drastically.
-Since most of people are non specialized you will have to use an exchange, meaning will pay their pool commission and will have coins in a custodial account(Exchange account)
-If you do this basically you are betting at same time that the coin you are staking will go up long term since when you stake you should have a balance of that coin. The higher the balance the higher the reward but at same time the higher the bet in that particular coin.
-There are only a small number of coins that have staking option for the moment
As i see it for now in my personal opinion is very risky to bet on those coins. December 1st meaning tomorrow is supposed that etherium will pass to POS algorithm. Tomorrow would be a good time for all of those who hold etherium in their portofoio to start Staking this coin too and add extra profit to their investment.
- cigo
- Gaining experience
- Karma: 4
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Re: Long on BTC
yes stakingWolfie wrote:Do you mean staking ?cigo wrote: what is your opinion about Stakin crypto?
- CharlieSheen99
- Pro
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Thank you for the info.
Re: Long on BTC
Sounds really interesting.Wolfie wrote:Do you mean staking ? Staking for those who do not know its the equivalent of mining but for cryptos who use POS(Proof of Stake) algorithm. Differently from mining you do not need equipment but just a balance of the crypto where you will stake to earn commissions from transaction validation. There are upsides and downsides to this.cigo wrote: what is your opinion about Stakin crypto?
Pros:
-You do not need specialized equipment
-All big exchanges offer it as a service, meaning you dont need to setup it yourself, they do it for you if you hold a balance in their exchange for a small commission.
-You earn coins while doing nothing but just investing.
-Return rates are good for the moment (From 5-7%)
Cons:
-Since it is so simple everyone can do it meaning in long term return rates will fall drastically.
-Since most of people are non specialized you will have to use an exchange, meaning will pay their pool commission and will have coins in a custodial account(Exchange account)
-If you do this basically you are betting at same time that the coin you are staking will go up long term since when you stake you should have a balance of that coin. The higher the balance the higher the reward but at same time the higher the bet in that particular coin.
-There are only a small number of coins that have staking option for the moment
As i see it for now in my personal opinion is very risky to bet on those coins. December 1st meaning tomorrow is supposed that etherium will pass to POS algorithm. Tomorrow would be a good time for all of those who hold etherium in their portofoio to start Staking this coin too and add extra profit to their investment.
Thank you for the info.